TJ02: Double Your Pleasure

[TedJackson]

Looks as if the 15th is about right

I'll roll a few starts and post them at the beginning of next week.

Current settings are Continents, Wet, Temperate & Rocky. If I have enough time I'll generate some Wet, Temperate, Hilly maps for comparison.


Ted

 

[Greebley]

I was trying out the settings you mention, Ted and happened to get a pure jungle start. I realized I was wrong with my above statement. You can clear jungle right away. Only chopping forests waits for Dynasticism.

...

Well I decided to kill that game. I popped a hut and the barbarians that came out of it made me move my worker and ruined my work on the Hardy Clan twice. My warriors were unable to kill them (they have 4 hp and are 2-2-1. I guess I should have build tribal guardians, but then they would simply chase my workers down and destroy any roads.

I kind of feel that they made barbarians a bit too tough in Dyp. I might comment on it in the thread, though it has probably been discussed to death already. Are we playing Sedentary or Roaming barbs in this game? In any case, I don't think we want to pop huts very early on. When it takes 20-30 turns for your first settler, they are murder.

Is it true you can't get Barbs from a hut if you have no military? How about the scout unit? Maybe just scouts at first could be the way to go - grab the huts near home before building a warrior.

 

[TedJackson]

I played some more over the weekend and have come to the conclusion that the barbs are a bit too fierce and add too much luck to the early game so I suggest that we play with no barbs.

As I plan on rolling the starts later today could anyone with an objection post ASAP.


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

I really have no idea how DyP works yet. Only that the tech tree is frightening. But won't "no barbs" handicap the expansionist Civs too much? Can we use sedentary barbs instead?

I agree that strong barbs tend to introduce a bigger luck factor into the game since the rate at which you meet them (and therefore lose units) has a high random factor.

 

[a space oddity]

It's particularly hard to get started. In that period you're really vunerable for Barb attacks. If there was a way of introducing barbs later that could be a compromise.

Maybe we can ask someone to make a map for us. Just maybe cracker has some time on his hands now that he's retired...

 

[TedJackson]

Sedentary is a possibility but non-expansionist civs will still have a chance of popping barbs from huts and suffering the consequences. So I'm still not sure which is the best choice.

Perhaps the best way to decide is the old "Let's have a vote on it"


Ted

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

TJ, please do *NOT* start the game right now. Wait a few more days. 2.01x is just out for a week, and we're getting the first bug feedback right now.

And since we've learned from Firaxis and incorporated some last-minute fixes after the testing , it could be some changes will be needed again...this doesn't mean we'll have to wait for another release, but maybe you should apply some fixes yourself via the editor, once Kal-el has spoken.

On Barbarians:
I for one have no problems with roaming barbs; just pop no huts near our cities. We start with 1/2/1 TGs, and if we need to attack them, we need Archers - but we need a few Archers anyway. The ptw Barbs usually don't attack escorted units, but prefer to pillage improvements.

So I'd vote for Roaming, but Sedentary would be fine for me also.


Edit: And yes, no barbs from huts until you have military; we could start with a Scout.

 

[Greebley]

I tried the scout idea and it worked well. My only flaw as not quite making enough (I made 2).

One thing I had forgotten about that I liked about DYP. The great library requires a library in the town to build the GL. This is huge for the following reason: You can't wonder cascade to the Great Library - it can only be started once you discover literature. I think we should go for Lit and the GL right after we discover dynasticism. It is hard to keep up with the AI's in tech. The rate cap limits the humans a lot more than the AI who tends a more "middle of the road" expenditure on tech, while the human will usually go to an extreme (min or max science) - at least initially.

Speaking of the rate cap (For those that may not know, you can't put more than 50% into science or gold at the start and no more than 60% at dynasticism) - there is the PTW bug that involves the rate cap - you can adjust money to be higher than 50% for a turn by turning down science and lux. The rate is readjusted between every turn. However, if you do this every turn, you can actually get around the cap entirely for gold. For some reason it adjusts the rates AFTER giving you the cash for the turn. I think we should decide whether this "strategy/exploit" is allowed or disallowed, because it can become VERY tempting to do if you are going to run out of cash. Otherwise you have to disband units ( if you make too many early on for example). My vote would be for disallowing it. as it defeats the whole purpose of the cap and really is a bug.

 

[a space oddity]

Agreed.

I am neutral to using Barbs, leaning a tiny bit to the no-barbs-at-all side. The game will be interesting enough as it is. We could handpick our opponents to let them not suffer too much.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Building 2 Scouts in the beginning is extremely risky...any AI Civ will consider us very weak, and if one happens to be near enough, it'll simply move its 4 starting units and - Game over.

1 Scout, maybe, then Warrior - Hardy - Warrior - Warrior

Everything else is suicidial IMHO.


I agree 100% on the Great Library. I even make sure to have a Forge and a Library prebuild ready when I discover Dynasticism, which effectively means I'll get Iron Working quite early.

I also agree on the rate cap, we should stick to it. Note this means avoiding any gpt payments above 1gpt- our income is so low in the beginning, that 1 more Clan can result in a negative income

 

[Greebley]

I don't think the AI thinks that way. Usually he won't go for an early attack. To date I have found the most dangerous thing that can happen is to get a free settler or free city. It seems if you are both doing well and have a weak military, then you will get attacked. You also have to watch out for the more aggressive civs.

We could try:
scout-scout-scout-tribal defender dude-hardy settler

The 3 scouts could check the near environs for huts and such before the tribal whatever is built. On a large map we can really use 3 scouts. Also knowing two AI who do not know one another is probably the most powerful trading asset you can have.

Personally I think even 3 scouts and a hardy settler would work. If some AI comes close during the settler, then just switch to the tribal guardian. The problem is that random troops will wander by so you switch even though the chance of them taking your city is small.

[Edit: Note that this strategy works for higher levels of difficulty since then you are behind. It might be very dangerous in regent. I am not sure. The info here is based on personal experience with light military builds and Betazed's deity win with no military units built the whole game Betazed's game

 

[a space oddity]

That was a one in a million game that one. Let's try it that way, but we have to see what kind of starting position we have, a bit of growth wouldn't hurt. We'll have to watch out for the spy type units, they can attack without you ever see 'm. I'm not sure when the first can be built though. Does any of you know?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

@Greebley: My experience is totally diferrent - until I pump out Military, the AI ususally declares on me before turn 30, if near enough. They cannot do much harm, but I have to build more Military than I'd need normally.
This especially happens when an AI Civs feels slightly poached; i.e. it sits on a large peninsula, and your borders block the way out.

35 Shields for units before we start the 1st Clan means we've lost the race for good city spots already...
IMHO, there's no way around 10 Shields for units, then start the Hardy to finish once our capital reaches pop2. We could try the 2x Scout gambit, but this could easily mean we'll have to start again .
Also, without a Luxury, our capital will riot at pop2 without a MP unit, this means we'd have to build the 3 Scouts without food surplus, and grow with the TG completed.

@space:
The 1st invisible unit is the Assassin, but it looks like all Hidden Nationalities need to be removed (the stupid AI values them so high to not build any other attacker....); that's why I don't want to start this right now - TJ may have to fix this manually.

 

[mad-bax]

I had my first little play with Dyp last night, and I only played 50 turns or so, and had absolutely no clue what was going on

However, I did notice that I couldn't roll a wet start for love nor money.

Barbs showed up on several maps almost immediately despite the setting being sedentary.

My start location was always within a dozen or so tiles from the nearest civ. I felt squeezed immediately.

My starting techs were of no value whatever to the AI. On first contact I could not trade both of my techs for one of theirs.

The AI were very aggressive.

I'm going to need to read up on this mod before we play, otherwise 100 turns in we're going to be dead IMO.

Where should I go to learn? Is the civilopeadia reasonable?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

For any reasons, the AI Civs in DyP are more aggressive regardless of their settings , and for any reason, the starting locations seems to be closer also.

Our starting Techs (Alphabet/ Wheel) aren't the greatest, and on Emperor, we won't get more then one Tech for both of them.

But hey, we don't want an easy game!


mad-bax, the Civilopedia is quite accurate for the DyP 1.50 version, and most of the changes in 2.01 are units - so make sure to read the Wonders section, and check units + Govs in the editor.

 

[Greebley]

Out of curiosity what happens if a city is taken by a "hidden nationality" unit?

Interesting on the early attacks. I really just played the one game, and was able to do 2 scouts and one hardy without a problem - though I didn't have as much problem with the AI being really close If you do have had major problems in DYP then it is not worth the risk and we should do something else. Out of curiosity were you playing on emporer (or deity), and have no "food surplus" at start? At easier difficulties or with a +3 food square, you couldl outgrow the AI's for the most part making them more likely to attack.

I guess, whether you choose 20, 30, or 40% land would affect things too. I am thinking 40% might help the crowding problem.

Ya, the hidden nationality is a bit much. The AI will start hitting random cities even when not at war. It really discouraged me from continuing.

Madbax, If barbarians are popped from huts, unlike in normal PTW, the AI does not go and try to kill them at least not at first because the barbs are stronger than the AI's units. The barbs just wander around and harrass everyone. Since the AI tend to defend their cities more, your cities may be more tempting so nearby barbs will go after you. This is one reason I liked the scout idea - by getting the nearby huts out of our hair, they won't be popping barbs on us. This is my guess on why you are seeing barbs on sedentary.

 

[mad-bax]

Didn't think of that Greebley. With the AI so close by, and not expansionist the barbs must have come from popped huts.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

It just is owned by the Civ of the HN unit, without any hostility. But since you can use that as well, it's not a flawed concept by itself - the real problem is the idiotic AI build preferences, valueing HN INCREDIBLY high.

And I mean exactly Emperor/ Diety games with average starting positions; in fact, I did stop from trying Diety (except for Pelagos), since the AI always comes to kill me here, even Korea or India!

On Emperor it extremly depends on the map (but a large peninsula isn't enough to calm down for an AI), and if they feel strong enough, they'll try it. I'm rather sure its depending on your military, since I've seen the SoD approaching my capital and returning once I built another Warrior/ TG several times - and you get peace, once you kill 3 of their initial units.

 

[Greebley]

Doc,
Can they make them invisible, but without hidden nationality? I think I would like this better - you have to be at war to be attacked, but still have that risk.
I may also go suggest on their web site that they be later in the game. The ancient era seems too early for them. I would at least wait into the middle of the middle ages or perhaps later.

Ted,
I am wondering if we should start a new thread when we start the game. We have added 3 pages of discussion of which much won't be relevant to the actual game, but rather game setup.

 

[TedJackson]

Greebley,

that sounds like a workable solution. Force the AI to take responsibility for their actions

BTW Doc, I'm happy to implement any tweaks needed. Just let me know what's required.


Ted