TJ02: Double Your Pleasure

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Yes, removing HN is exactly what's needed. Don't think they come too early, the Emissary is a lousy unit otherwise, hardly able to defeat a reg Warrior - but that forces us to never leave cities undefended.

And imagine, the AI does use the invisible units exactly as intented! In my current game (Mali, what else ) my neighbor did sneak attack me with Emissaries - successfull!


TJ, I'll pm you a list of the tweaks soon. All about units, the HN thing as top priority, and mainly UU stuff; this won't have any impact on the DyP feeling, but since we need to fix the Spies, we can fix some minor bugs as well.

 

[TedJackson]

OK Doc,

ready when you are


Ted

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

TJ, another fix to apply is making the Colonial Marines Amphibious.

 

[TedJackson]

Tweaks done,

waiting for Doc to confirm correctness

Starts rolling as soon as I hear back.


Ted

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Unfortunately I don't have access to Civ until tomorrow, so everything I say is OTOH.

Your tweak list looks fine, except I wonder if there weren't more Rifleman flavors (like African Rifleman). Could you please check that again?

Anyway, the only really crucial fix is removing the HN.


Engineers do not come with Comp Ed. I'm 99% sure they come with Computers (and I'm 100% sure they come with a Modern Era Tech). You could check that in the Spreadsheet delivered with the mod; if you cannot find it, use Computers.

 

[TedJackson]

Doc,

No spreadsheet installed for the new version. I'll install on another machine tomorrow unless somebody else chimes in with the correct answer.

On the Rifles issue I looked in the pedia and took what I found there. I should have known something was missing



Ted

 

[TedJackson]

Engineers come with Electronics

I've found & tweaked the African Rifleman so now I'll be able to roll some starts later today.


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

Ted: Have you got round to rolling the starts for this game yet.
The 15th is just around the corner....

 

[TedJackson]

Starts rolling as I type, had a little re-tweaking to do


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

Will we have to do the tweaks ourselves?

 

[TedJackson]

Not necessary MB,

The start will incorporate the changes.


Ted

 

[TedJackson]

Here we go then

Here's the list of the tweaks applied to the DyP basic 2.01x mod:

Tweaks
Emissaries (all flavours) - removed HN, Added invisibility
Assassin - removed HN
Ninja - removed HN
Spy - removed HN
Secret Service - removed HN
Secret Agent - removed HN
Special Agent - removed HN
Covert Operative - removed HN

Labourers - added Airlift
Rifleman (all flavours) - Airlift added

Cuirassiers - added Ottomans
Privateer - set Bombard range to 0
Elephant Riders - removed Wheeled
Jet fighters - require Oil & Aluminium (not changed)
Inti - removed Amphibious & Blitz
Cossack - set HP Bonus to +2
Colonial Marines - Amphibious added

Here are the start conditions (all starts were generated in-game, not from the editor):

Start Conditions
Map Size: Large
Map type: Continents, 60% Water
Barbs: Sedentary
Climate: Wet
Temperature: Temperate
Age: 3 Billion
Civ: Mali
Opponents: 11 random
Enabled victories: Domination, Space Race, Diplomatic, Conquest, Cultural
Misc: Civ-Specific abilities on, Preserve random seed on, Cultural conversions on, all others off
Level: Emperor

Finally, here are the starts:

Start A

Start B

Start C

Start D

Start E

Remember, not many resources are yet visible but the terrain allows their presence later on

Vote for your favourite/least favourite and narrow down the choices.


Ted

 

[a space oddity]

I like A for the food, B for the Horse (we get to use our UU for sure ) and E for the balanced mix and a defendable position.

I don't like C for the poor land and the central position in the map (11 opponents on an emperor level ) and D for the sort of nothingness of it.

That being said I only started one game in DyP ever, so I don't exactly know what the food/shield/money implications are.

 

[Greebley]

I am going to vote against A. Starts with that much food (+2) are unusual, and I don't think we will get a good feel for the rormal starts in DYP with it. Its like rolling 5 starts and picking the one with 2 cows.

My order will be:

D, B, E, C, A

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Is C on a hill? If yes, that is an absolut killer start, by far the best choice here.

To expand that a little:

Things to consider (Important!, especially for the DyP Newbies):

* Mixed terrain is the key
* Nothing will appear on bonus Grassland, and IIRC nothing except Alu will appear on Forrest.
* Our borders will expand after 10 turns.
* Mined Mountains give 6spt, Hills only 4. This makes mountain tiles far more valuable.
* We can mine anything but Grassland.
* Jungle nearly guaranties valuable resources - Bananas, Silks, Gems (Lux); Rubber only appears on Jungle tiles in DyP. Also, the AI won't settle Jungle tiles for the most part of the game, allowing us to expand in other directions first. Being surrounded by Jungle - ugly, being adjacent to Jungle -great!
* We definetely should start on a hill tile; we need the extras shields in the beginning.

Detailed Pro/Con list:

A) is out. We will have neither production nor food until turn 10, and even then we won't have any commerce; our Worker will waste 2 turns before he can even start roading.

B) is mediocre; we will have to move the Tribe 1 tile N or NE, but since he is ATAR, this is no problem. The bad thing is: Only Plains and Hills so far; the Horses look tempting, but won't help us before Dynasticism.

C) is really, really great (if it is on a hill, of course). The only start that will allow a productive size 3 city for sure. A river BG with a road means doubel research. And we have Jungle, Mountains, Flood Plain, Desert, Forrest, Grassland, Hills and Plains tiles nearby. Plus the Goody Hut. If this was my private game, I wouldn't hesitate for a single second.
Of course, we're in a risk of Disease.

D) is out. No River/ Hill in reach.

E) is between out and mediocre. We need to move 1 tile NW, and if we happen to get Wine or Sheep, this can turn out to be a good position, but it can turn out to be crap as well. Note there also is Jungle nearby, but to me it looks more likely here to be surrounded by Jungle than C).


My rating:

C(!) - C - C - B. If you beat me to it, I could accept E, but don't complain later.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

After rereading your recommendations, I feel urged to emphasize this again:

* We can mine anything but Grassland.

Note nothing except Cows will appear there before Alu that yields a single shield, only Food/ Trade boni.


BTW; C) is not the extremly lucky Herd-of-Cows start; with enough luck, all positions can turn out to be great, but C) is the only one that is really good even without a single bonus tile. Guaranteed Great Library.

 

[Greebley]

My low vote for C is for similar reasons to Docs, oddly enough. One thing I found about DYP is that the start makes a much bigger difference than a normal game. By playing start C or A, we are choosing an easier setting. B, D, E are the the "true" empire games that you will get normally if you just choose the first random position (This is based on several trial starts of my own - None of them were as good as A or C).

Maybe starting with C is a good idea since we don't know DYP that well and need a leg up against emporer AI. I am not sure. I certainly won't object if it is the consensus. Still I think the challenge of the "lesser" positions of B, D, or E is something we could handle. If our UU is based on having horses, I think I would agree on B being a good start.

Doc,
For D we could get to a hill on the river in a single turn. Also for A, I would forgo the river and settle near the apple and BGs. The extra food would allow us to get settlers out more quickly. Unless the river is a lot more important than I know?

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I don't think C) is an easy start - we'll have 2 Desert, 5 Mountain and 3 Jungle tiles in our borders; the point is not what it is right now, but what we can make out of it. And that is somewhat like the theme for DyP.

On A): You cannot settle on a Hill next to the Apple without losing the Mountain. And working the Apple gives 4 Food, allowing us to grow to size 3 with working the 2 BGs - yielding exactly 4 Shields, and 8 Commerce including the city tile itself. Compare that with C) : 1 more Commerce from the city and each worked river tile means 9 Commerce and 3 spt at size 2 already. Proper timing will allow us to build Clans.
The river is incredibly important for our early research, not for the growth later.

On D): We cannot reach a River/ Hill tile in the 1st turn, and the ones for turn 2 don't look so great.

As said, I can live with B) and E), but C) is the most interesting start.

 

[Karasu]

Hola.
I have never played mods, and I am a bit frightened at installing - uninstalling them...
But I have been lured into this game, I love all the players I see here, and I am just back from a journey to Mali.

So, what the hell, here I am.
Just give me a little time to find out the mod and understand it a bit -can I slip towards the end of the roster? Pretty please?

As for the starting position, I haven't the foggiest idea. I'll stay with the majority if you need a fast decision -just don't make it too easy, you know that MB loves challenges...

 

[TedJackson]

A big welcome to our mystery guest

If you troll through the thread Karasu there are a few pointers, including the download link for DyP 2.01x.

Roster is now officially closed.


Ted