Trump Steps in it Again

[hobbsyoyo]

No @Berzerker I am condescending myself all the time. You are mistaken

Biting commentary. I'm rekt

It’s true that Haiti is only modern country to be established after a slave revolt, though of course a system akin to slavery, the Code Rural, was soon set up by the victors. I don’t agree that the treatment was uniquely brutal. The Arabs routinely castrated their slaves, and historians estimate that tens of millions of Africans died in transit (John Azumah, in The Legacy of Arab-Islam in Africa: A Quest for Inter-religious Dialogue, puts the figure at 80 million).

I wonder why you believe that the sanctions and the indemnity (160 million francs, later reduced to 50 million) were unrivaled? Many countries have had to pay crushing reparations over long periods, and in fact being in debt bondage to Western nations was, and sadly often still is, the norm for third-world countries.

No country can be divorced from its history, and no one has suggested otherwise, but nor can one pretend that the events of the two centuries since the Haitian Revolution, the decades of political turmoil, the US occupation, the long line of dictators and coups, and the general misrule and bad governance, aren’t more important.

Haiti’s initial conditions were bad, but other countries, including Paraguay that I mentioned, found themselves in a worse state after wars. Soon after the war, the Haitians were still able to offer Simón Bolivar substantial material support. They even managed to occupy the rest of Hispaniola and hold it under their sway for 22 years; indeed, they extracted a decent portion of the indemnity payment from what became the Dominican Republic. Curiously enough, despite this, the Dominican Republic is doing much better than Haiti.

Ok so we're back to comparing different countries in different times in different situations and that proves Haiti is the Haitian's fault.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Do you know the difference and American/Cuban history???

Illegal immigrants surreptitiously arrive in America via Mexico and Central America...even though there is an immigration policy they could avail themselves with. They also can petition for student visas to study, work visas and asylum visas and marriage visas too.

Cubans have a lottery system and when they legally immigrate, they lose documentation on higher education. Just ask an educated person about effectively becoming a nonperson when you get to immigrate to America.

And then, most can't and due to political differences flee and take a dangerous ride on rafts to get to America and apply for political asylum. This is markedly different than illegal immigration. The numbers are small...and in total including all Cuban Americans is 0.58% of the population.

Then you have the so-called undocumented immigrants who are not allowed by Federal law to use programs for impoverished Americans,but show up at emergency rooms and thus so avoid payment which.is paid for by Medicaid to the tune of 2 billion dollars.

And then, if married to an American but undocumented yourself, you can still use these programs. And then if you have children who are undocumented,then they can use these programs.

So there is an entire drain on many many federal and state programs.

And it estimated that one in seven that are undocumented would immediately draw on these programs and this is unbudgeted expense totalling huge sums of money.

Where will we come up with the money?

There are seven major amnesty programs and then on a bipartisan level, they went back because some didn't take advantage but were scared to admit their illegal status. So the number is like 12 altogether. Just how many should we do knowing that it won't ever stop?

Where will they work when our own Millennials are having trouble?

It isn't actually sink or swim. Many refugees manage to do okay because of more strigent requirements including suggestions to pay back their sponsors who paid for their travel and so pay for another refugee and keep the program going. They are not obligated to do this.

But altogether, given the language differences, bias, and assimilation difficulties, the study I saw honestly demonstrated that they were living in poverty in the first generation. But then had enforced education in their children and a rise in economic status. I'll look for it.

So the issue is Illegals are taking advantage of a law loop hole to get emergancy care ? I assume you also read that they are deported afterwards ?
Do illegals pay more in Taxes, social security and sales taxes then they use in emergancy care ?
Else do you have a problem with the US citizens also using this law loop hole ?
Then perhaps the problem isnt really an illegal immigration problem but a heathcare problem ?

Are you not aware most immigrants are young ?
The irony is that the Republican states being hollwoed out and now have an aging population are being revived by new young immigrants taking up all the hardest jobs.
How many states actually have sufficent welfare to support an illegal immigrant that dosnt work ? Without unemployment benefits how will an illegal immigrant actually survive ? Can they get food stamps ? Can they get government housing ? How many undocumented immigrants dont work and are draining US government services ??? No free housing, No free food, no unemployment benefits how exactly do you think they do all day ?
It really is a sink or swim in America.

Like heathcare, immigration needs to be fixed but well politics get in the way of everything.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Like heathcare, immigration needs to be fixed but well politics get in the way of everything.

And the politics of the right are driven by greed, xenophobia and stupidity. You can lead the horse to water but it'll drown itself it dodgy alt-right web links to spite the other side.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I wonder why you believe that the sanctions and the indemnity (160 million francs, later reduced to 50 million) were unrivaled? Many countries have had to pay crushing reparations over long periods, and in fact being in debt bondage to Western nations was, and sadly often still is, the norm for third-world countries.

No country can be divorced from its history, and no one has suggested otherwise, but nor can one pretend that the events of the two centuries since the Haitian Revolution, the decades of political turmoil, the US occupation, the long line of dictators and coups, and the general misrule and bad governance, aren’t more important.

You do know what that DEBT was to pay for RIGHT ?
Can you explain why the US would back France over this Debt ?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

You do know what that DEBT was to pay for RIGHT ?
Can you explain why the US would back France over this Debt ?

Don't worry, Haiti is filled with poor black guys and that means they all commit crime and are responsible for everything bad. /s

 

[Oerdin]

And, of course, if nothing else, Trump himself will do something even more despicable next week.

Not to mention Maxine Waters is a completely evil piece of human waste. I am old enough to remember when Mrs. Waters cheered and encouraged looting and arson during the Rodney King riots. She is a completely immoral political opportunist who long ago should have been executed for her part in getting people killed and ruining the livelihoods of countless people.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Not to mention Maxine Waters is a completely evil piece of human waste. I am old enough to remember when Mrs. Waters cheered and encouraged looting and arson during the Rodney King riots. She is a completely immoral political opportunist who long ago should have been executed for her part in getting people killed and ruining the livelihoods of countless people.

I cheered during the Rodney King riots. The LAPD was at that time the most grotesque mockery of a law enforcement organization on the planet, and everyone in LA knew it. There was even a fair amount of growing concern among the "well, as long as they only target black people..." crowd that the LAPD was starting to expand well beyond that boundary of "acceptability." As usual, black people were forced to carry the weight of forcing police reform for everyone, but don't think that it wasn't widely appreciated, because it was.

 

[Oerdin]

We need a fantasy rep.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

We need a fantasy rep.

What's a "fantasy rep"? Someone to validate your view of LA from San Diego as being inherently more valid than my view of LA from LA? Is that what you are looking for?

 

[Broken_Erika]

We need a fantasy rep.

Tolkein-esque? or just generic fantasy?
The house needs Elves, maybe some Dwarves too(Gimli 2020-or-whenever-the-elections-are), i'm pretty sure it already has plenty of Orc's though.....

 

[Cassius Critzer]

I think that it's odd for someone who is not living in America to then act as if they understand the complex history of American immigration. I doubt you would be able to find a more rigorous advocate of genuine American immigrants and refugees than myself. I won't say the particulars. Regardless I have fought in those trenches.

2018 is not 1860 or prior. Immigration occurs on a humanitarian rationale AFTER pragmatism. If they cannot find work, it won't work. We have a huge underemployment problem and an unemployment problem based on being in that category for so long that the numbers reflect HALF actual numbers.

People working as subcontractors are responsible for paying their own social security and taxes. Do they? People who get paid cash are similarly not paying. So the liberal idea that illegal immigrants are positively contributing while not using government benefits is a fallacy.

Yesterday federal law was being enforced, the same ones that were illegally ignored by Obama's presidential memorandum. Expect more sweeps by ICE to catch illegal immigrants. We could see an executive order similar to Eisenhower's that sent Mexican illegals out of the country. Look up this action which took place by INS in 1954.

Congress made these immigration laws. It is the president's duty as the Executive to carry out the Law. It is up to Congress to change the immigration laws and has to be accepted by the President and not vetoed. Even then, such actions would no doubt have legal challenges up to the Supreme Court.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Relevant:
https://kottke.org/18/01/how-haiti-became-poor

Never heard of this source before.

@Timsup2nothin Have the LAPD meaningfully improved since Rodney King?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Claim to credibility based on experience I am unwilling to share.

False claims about a problem being based on fake news reports that reality is the exact opposite of what it is.

Bizarre non-sequitur accusation out of the blue.

I was too lazy to make up specific disjointed ridiculous statements to string together, and too bored with the game to specifically respond to those already made so wanted to just respond in kind.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

@Timsup2nothin Have the LAPD meaningfully improved since Rodney King?

By gigantic leaps and bounds. Unfortunately, as is often the case when a police department undergoes significant reform, a very very few got jailed, a very few got fired, and most of the glaringly obvious bad cops were allowed to resign for made up reasons. The vast majority of those went directly to the LA County Sheriff's Department, where their 'previous experience' and 'high recommendations' made them highly prized hires who pretty much immediately moved into training and leadership positions. Therefore, twenty years later we have the LA County Sheriff and the undersheriff going to federal prison along with a very very few deputies, a few deputies getting fired, and most of the glaringly bad deputies being allowed to resign to escape the reforms....errr, that is, for various reasons...and the beat goes on.

 

[Cassius Critzer]

You realize at this point I merely laugh at Tim's posts as they are ad hominems..nothing more.

Anyone cheering rioting and the brutalization of innocent people by mobs...well they have no credibility as well.

Mob rule...how insane. Flout the mechanisms for political change...by rioting, burning, looting, mayhem...

Wow. This is a classic example of what is wrong with that form of democracy. Sounds like the French form of the Reign of Terror.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

well they have no credibility as well.

As a judge of who has credibility and who doesn't, your credibility is suspect.

 

[Cassius Critzer]

So says the guy cheering mob rule.

I get it! When the law is "wrong" then we just ignore it. And we justify uprisings. Just forget about rule of law.

What a concept. Thank God that America is a Republic...not a democracy.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

By gigantic leaps and bounds. Unfortunately, as is often the case when a police department undergoes significant reform, a very very few got jailed, a very few got fired, and most of the glaringly obvious bad cops were allowed to resign for made up reasons. The vast majority of those went directly to the LA County Sheriff's Department, where their 'previous experience' and 'high recommendations' made them highly prized hires who pretty much immediately moved into training and leadership positions. Therefore, twenty years later we have the LA County Sheriff and the undersheriff going to federal prison along with a very very few deputies, a few deputies getting fired, and most of the glaringly bad deputies being allowed to resign to escape the reforms....errr, that is, for various reasons...and the beat goes on.

Hmm okay so that explains the story that broke over the last few days of the LA Country Sheriff they just caught running a drug ring.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I get it! When the law is "wrong" then we just ignore it.

Please explain what you mean about "ignoring when the law is wrong."

Are you referring to law enforcement engaging in illegal activity being ignored? Because that is what was happening with the LAPD before "mob rule" brought it so far up in people's faces that they couldn't ignore it.

Or are you referring to some specific law on the books that, perhaps through being obsolete or something, would be widely viewed as 'wrong' but is so universally ignored by citizens and law enforcement alike that hardly anyone even knows that it exists? I usually find those entertaining, so if you have a good example please spill it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Hmm okay so that explains the story that broke over the last few days of the LA Country Sheriff they just caught running a drug ring.

Yeah. No doubt that guy was trained by someone who wasn't close enough to the top at Rampart to get sent to prison, but needed to bail out of the LAPD when the heat came on.