Ukraine Crisis master thread

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Excuse me, but what the hell are you even talking about? Give me examples; as it stands you're attacking a strawman notion of Atlanticism and cold war mindset. What I see is Europe that has for the past 20 years tried hard to close both eyes and stick fingers into its ears and sing "lalalalalala" loudly in order to be able to ignore the fact that Russia is NOT a democracy and that the regime DOES NOT want to play by the European rulebook which doesn't include aggression, bullying into obedience, arbitrary embargoes each time a country does something the bigger power doesn't like, military threats, internal subversion, etc. To put it in different words, Europe has been trying hard to see Russia as a reliable and responsible actor in international relations and a partner to the West with whom we can do business.

The link between geopolitical opposition to Russia, Atlanticism and Cold War mindset are actually quite strong. It is precisely the reason why newer EU states are more hostile towards Russia and not-suprisingly, more Pro-American as well. It only makes sense to oppose Russia from an Atlanticist POV, with the goal of reacting against other currents that compete with Atlanticism, of which friendly ties with Russia anathema.

Try to think of the EU as a standalone entity and forget about the NATO: What kind of interest do we have to be hostile to Russia? Nil. Again, the USA and the pleas from recent EU states and would-be EU states like Ukraine that propels us into an anti-Russian position we have no reason to take. It only makes sense to be opposed to Russia under the aegis of Atlanticism. Considering Russia long ceased to be the Cold War threat it used to be, Atlanticism should be shed in favour for closer friendship with Russia. Not in the last part because we will have more leverage in such a relationship than the one we currently have with the US. I am not anti-American in any way, yet we need to re-evaluate our ties with the US, similar to what Gaullist France did in the 1960s.

This illusion, this mental construct in the Western European mind has always been met with lots of scepticism in the newer EU states, and often the reaction of the old EU states was sneering at their experience and accusations of paranoia. Now who's been paranoid and who's been naïve? Putin is making that crystal clear right now. You're just continuing in this tradition of naïvety right now, wanting to see Russia as a "victim" - a victim of what, pray tell, good intentions? :crazyeye:

The only victims of this mindset will be ourselves. Russia may be acting highly aggressively in regards to the Crimea, though we have to face the fact that plenty of ethnic Russians welcome Russia's actions and that it is simply not the big bad wolf we'd like to believe it is. We also have no obligation, morally or otherwise, to protect a state that is NOT part of the EU, we have no such agreement requiring such and is not significantly more free than Russia.

Now, that is still far cry from saying that everything Russia is doing is great. Yet we are wasting our heads and use human rights rethoric to feel good about it, in the process. Any political conflict between Russia and the EU, will weaken both, though especially the EU.
 
Czech Rep. is 100% dependant on Russian gas. We should save them from us, thugs, and turn off the valve! This is not bullying, I just want Winner to be free!
 
Thanks for illuminating the state of democratic development of the Russian society.
You may dislike Russian society all you want. The fact is, the actions which made you cry are not just incited by some "thugs" controlling Russia, but actually supported by its people. Including people who live in Crimea.

I am tired of your endless circular logic. It is a known fact that Russia abuses its dominant position in the post-Soviet market area to bully other countries.
Why, yes, sure. It's a well-known fact in your imaginary world.
 
Now, that is still far cry from saying that everything Russia is doing is great. Yet we are wasting our heads and use human rights rethoric to feel good about it, in the process. Any political conflict between Russia and the EU, will weaken both, though especially the EU.
We already HAVE a political conflict with Russia. We should recognise that the current government in Moscow thinks of all this in terms of a zero-sum game. If Russia advances its position, we lose, and that's the point; Russia becomes realtively stronger. The Putin government does not deal in win-win scenarios. It might have proposed what it thinks something like that might look like by now, if it did.

The EU can keep trading with Russia, but it needs to recognise that from Kremlin's pov, there is no win-win situation for the EU in Russia closing the economic gap to the EU countries. It's all lose-lose for the EU, since it sets Russia up to better intimidate and assert itself through the threat, and use, of force. If the EU still thinks the advantages outweight the risks, then we absolutely should. Often it might, sometimes just maybe we should forego a deal (on things military technology etc. perphaps). But we shouldn't be naive. We also should re-arm. However grudgingly, Putin does respect that kind of strength.

We also shouldn't overestimate Russia either, just because we have just been subjected at a first new spate of destabilisation and intimidation in Europe. Who knows how long Putin lasts? Nobody really knows what happens down the road anyway. But the EU should have no illusions about Putin, and set its own house in order accordingly to be prepared for any eventuality. Lord knows that's big enough a task.
 
The link between geopolitical opposition to Russia, Atlanticism and Cold War mindset are actually quite strong. It is precisely the reason why newer EU states are more hostile towards Russia and not-suprisingly, more Pro-American as well. It only makes sense to oppose Russia from an Atlanticist POV, with the goal of reacting against other currents that compete with Atlanticism, of which friendly ties with Russia anathema.

That's nonsense, there's no causal link as you describe it and you're conjuring it up out of thin air. Study the foreign policy of ex-Warsaw Pact states and you'll find a pretty complicated web of relationships with Russia - some adversarial, some cooperative.

The new EU states are in general more Atlanticist and more Russia-sceptic simply because a) Russia has never really stopped attempting to interfere with their matters and there was always the looming threat of Russia returning to its previous expansionist policies. The old saying "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" applies; and b) because NATO and therefore the US involvement in Europe was perceived as the only deterrent strong enough to dissuade Russia from attempting to include Central Europe in its "near abroad" as it had in the previous several decades. Opinions such as yours coming from some western European countries only strengthened the need in these countries to hedge their bets, lest the Germans, the French, the British and others decided to rehash their long-established tradition of throwing Central and Eastern Europe to the wolves, be they of any totalitarian variety.

In other words, is was a sensible, rational choice to pursue a strategy to protect their political and economic independence from foreign meddling. If there was an ideological dimension to it, it was the democratic paradigm - after getting rid of one undemocratic, oppressive regime, nobody was in any mood to have the Russian "oligarchic" model imposed on them. Western Europe was the model to be pursued.

Try to think of the EU as a standalone entity and forget about the NATO: What kind of interest do we have to be hostile to Russia? Nil.

I agree - with the caveat that nobody should tell us to keep quiet about how the Russian regime treats the opposition. Giving up on our values to secure better trade deals with Russia is a Faustian trade. The other problem is that Russia is the one initiating hostility with the EU, not the other way round.

Again, the USA and the pleas from recent EU states and would-be EU states like Ukraine that propels us into an anti-Russian position we have no reason to take.

Again this nonsensical, insulting notion that the whole situation is somehow created by crazy "eastern Europeans" antagonizing good old calm and friendly Russia. Do you realize how offensive it sounds? Are you really that blind with respect to what policies the Russian regime pursues vis-a-vis Central and Eastern Europe?

Some countries do have a LEGITIMATE cause to fear Russian interference in their affairs. The EU is obliged, if it is to have any role and value as an alliance or indeed a proto-federal state, to ensure that other entities, be it Russia, the US, China, or whomever, are not able to carve it up, divide it and subjugate its parts while the rest sits on their behinds doing nothing.

It only makes sense to be opposed to Russia under the aegis of Atlanticism.

No, it makes every sense to be opposed to Russia if Russia is acting aggressively against the EU, its member states and its allies. It's called self-defence, you know.

But if what you mean is "throw anything east of Germany to Russia so that we can be friendly with them", say it openly - just make it clear that is the price you're willing to pay.

Considering Russia long ceased to be the Cold War threat it used to be, Atlanticism should be shed in favour for closer friendship with Russia. Not in the last part because we will have more leverage in such a relationship than the one we currently have with the US. I am not anti-American in any way, yet we need to re-evaluate our ties with the US, similar to what Gaullist France did in the 1960s.

Again, what price are you willing to pay for this "friendship"? And it takes two to tango, I am afraid.

The only victims of this mindset will be ourselves. Russia may be acting highly aggressively in regards to the Crimea, though we have to face the fact that plenty of ethnic Russians welcome Russia's actions and that it is simply not the big bad wolf we'd like to believe it is. We also have no obligation, morally or otherwise, to protect a state that is NOT part of the EU, we have no such agreement requiring such and is not significantly more free than Russia.

You know, there is a lovely word in the Czech language which I've set out to introduce into English: alibism [alley-bism]. Very roughly it means inventing excuses in order to avoid responsibility, shifting blame to others, and in general remaining as passive as possible with respect to doing things that need to be done.

Ukraine was openly bullied and forced not to sign an agreement with the EU that had been years in preparations. Clearly, Russia was the initiator of this crisis; it was the Russian paranoid notion that association with the EU is a hostile act toward Russia.

The Ukrainians overthrew the government and profess determination to pursue closer ties with the EU and adoption of our values. The EU can leave them hang out to dry, thus losing credibility as a serious force in the world, or it can stand up for itself and its interests. The Russians will react and their reaction will determine the future of EU-Russia reactions.

The point is, it is up to Russia to stop being belligerent and adversarial. The EU is not doing anything hostile against Russia.

Now, that is still far cry from saying that everything Russia is doing is great. Yet we are wasting our heads and use human rights rethoric to feel good about it, in the process. Any political conflict between Russia and the EU, will weaken both, though especially the EU.

Translation: we should resign on human rights, rule of law, democracy and everything the EU defines as its basic values in order to appease Russia. Lovely.

Czech Rep. is 100% dependant on Russian gas. We should save them from us, thugs, and turn off the valve! This is not bullying, I just want Winner to be free!

Actually, it isn't. You see, when Czechoslovakia kicked out the Russian occupation forces in 1990, many in the government realized that we would never be rid of your kind of "fraternal assistance" unless we break the dependence on Russian oil/gas imports. So we started building pipelines to the West to obtain an alternative to Russian gas/oil, so that if Russia got any silly ideas, we'd be able to tell it go frak itself and not freeze in winter as a result. This goal has largely been met now - we can import about 1/3 of our standard consumption needs from the West, i.e. should push come to shove, we can survive even a complete Russian oil/gas embargo.

So please, use the miserably insignificant influence on your government that you may have and make them cut off exports, see what happens :pat:

You may dislike Russian society all you want. The fact is, the actions which made you cry are not just incited by some "thugs" controlling Russia, but actually supported by its people. Including people who live in Crimea.

:lmao: Still the little obedient subjects of the Tsar? Some people just never change, obviously.

Why, yes, sure. It's a well-known fact in your imaginary world.

Nope, it's the real world, but we have already established that you're not very much in contact with it.
 
All those posts, and for what? We all know that the EU will survive.

In memory :)

And so they've killed our EUland, said the charwoman to Mr Winner, who had left political service years before, after having been finally certified by a game political board as a facsimile, and now lived by making posts--ugly, mongrel monstrosities whose sources he forged.1
 
Actually, with a clear external challenge like this, the need for a European Union just went up.

I certainly wish the EU's ability to deal with its internal challenges was better, but an external challenge also mitigates those deficiencies.
 
:lmao: Still the little obedient subjects of the Tsar? Some people just never change, obviously.
Yeah, humble slaves of our great emperor and dear comrade.
Your laugh looks a bit nervous, don't hurt yourself :)

Nope, it's the real world, but we have already established that you're not very much in contact with it.
Judging from recent and current events, it's you who lost contact with reality.
Such people usually harmless, but sometimes need to be carefully contained, to prevent them from hurting anybody :)
Germans are good at it:

Link to video.
 
This goal has largely been met now - we can import about 1/3 of our standard consumption needs from the West, i.e. should push come to shove, we can survive even a complete Russian oil/gas embargo.

So you would not be harmed at all if the valve is off? Okay.

So we started building pipelines to the West to obtain an alternative to Russian gas/oil

Alternative Russian gas from subsidiary companies and resellers you mean, no longer formally called Russian? Okay :lol:
 
You are aware that oil and gas exist in countries other than Russia?

^He was responding to the glorious gaspipe-building project, which could always go the other way and link two sides of the atlantic. It would cost a few tens of trillions of euros, but whatever, at least the west of Europe will be free from Russian oil/gas, after a decade (during which it won't matter). So it was sound reasoning all-around :)

Personally i still think it is fairly more cost-effective and practically possible that half of the EU just builds a colony on Mars and mines there for energy.
 
Why do you trade with Russian despotism then? :lol:
Well, because 1) it's cheap, and 2) we (European in general) have been thinking kindly of Russia up until now.

The cheap bit still holds. You are of course free to despise everyone else in the world for their naivety regarding your Russian selves.
 
^He was responding to the glorious gaspipe-building project, which could always go the other way and link two sides of the atlantic. It would cost a few tens of trillions of euros, but whatever, at least the west of Europe will be free from Russian oil/gas, after a decade (during which it won't matter). So it was sound reasoning all-around :)
Really? Yes, that sounds fairly stupid. Working LNG terminals at certain key points seem more practicable, and that was what was being outlined by the EU recently. It's going to take several years to get in place though.

If was otherwise under the impression that what's perfectly doable, should Russia close its taps, is to simply pump the gas back the other way. We hook the system on to the Dutch and French LNG-terminal feeds and pump at least a certain amount of what it needs into central Europe. In fact, the EU is discussing aiding Ukraine in the same way, by shutting off the gas from the Russian direction, and pumping gas back from Bulgaria and Slovakia.

It's apparently sufficiently realistic a scenario, that Gazprom reps have protested against the scenario already, and declared such an action "illegal". It doesn't seem to require any great technical feats.
 
It was 2 times cheaper for Ukraine before the events, and you still claim Russia bullies it with gas prices.
I will be directing others to this post, as an indication of a curious kind of Russian mind-set, since you are clearly oblivious to the yawning chasm in your reasoning here.
 
So you would not be harmed at all if the valve is off? Okay.

Well, so shut it off already. Let's see how long will you last without EU money filling up a half of your national budget :pat:

Alternative Russian gas from subsidiary companies and resellers you mean, no longer formally called Russian? Okay :lol:

Nope, chiefly Norwegian and other North Sea gas.

And what is that exactly?

A euphemistic way of saying that you're a blabbering idiot.

Moderator Action: Flaming
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
A euphemistic way of saying that you're a blabbering idiot.
No, that's too harsh. In situations like these, I tend to prefer: "Unlucky when thinking."

It at least holds out the hope that the luck might change at some point.:)

Moderator Action: And this is piggy backing on Winner's comment, which was a flame. No need for dogpiling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Well, so shut it off already. Let's see how long will you last without EU money filling up a half of your national budget :pat:

Money have no value of their own. It is all about resources and labour. EU has few resources and little labour, since it is so-called post-industrial economy.

Nope, chiefly Norwegian and other North Sea gas.

Uhm, from that part of it Putin has seceded to Norway in '00s? :lol:

you're a blabbering idiot.

Says Winner :lol:
 
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