Ukraine Crisis master thread

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So Russia is claiming to have brought down a US drone over Crimea by hacking it. If this turns out to be true, this could get a lot worse. I don't think we'd go to war over a drone, but it definitely increases the tension and brings us another step closer to hostilities.

EDIT: This is especially troubling because the Russians are claiming the drone was armed, which means if true it was not just there for recon.
 
Oh? Maybe I meant that UK and UK didn't do anything significant (other than expressing grave concern and minor diplomatic sanctions) when Ukrainian territory was invaded, althought they guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity. Imho that makes them (UK/USA) unreliable & untrustworthy and their lack of credibility might somewhat affect their international reputation, especially when dealing with Iranian nuclear programme and other issues in which credibility is needed...

Ummm, no. All it means is that the joint guarantee of Ukraine's territorial integrity is broken unilaterally by Russia. But feel free to blame the US and UK for Russia's untrustworthiness.
 
red elk said:
I didn't say this referendum will be perfectly democratic, what I'm saying is that making it as much democratic as possible - and therefore, legitimizing it in public opinion as much as possible - is in Putin's interests.

In other words - the result will be 51% of votes for joining Russia. As much democratic as possible for Putin.

Borachio said:
Domen said:
I don't know who the small cowering group were. Were they Ukrainians or Russians? I suspect Russians.

The small group are Crimean citizens, fascists who dared to claim that they will vote for Ukraine on Sunday.

However, they will not manage to break through "security forces" to a ballot box, as you can see.

The large group are of course peaceful non-fascist ethnic Great-Russian lovers of democracy.
 
Some nice Russian propaganda:





Some people even believe them:


Link to video.

"Russia lost 20 million people in WW2 fighting fascism" - this guy in the video above said.

I suggest he should check how many of those 20 million were Ukrainians and Belarussians.

And he should check how many Ukrainians were killed by Stalinist terror before & after WW2.

======================================

Here is what A. Dugin - a Russian lunatic and head of the Eurasian Youth Union - recently said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Youth_Union

"Russia's march of liberation won't stop at Crimea, the Dniepr, nor even the Western border of ex-Ukraine.

Our aim is liberating entire Europe from the Atlantic occupants."

(A. Dugin)


Looks like for some people 70 years without a world war is too long time.

Another similar pro-WW3 Russian lunatic - F. Lukianov - basically claims, that a German-Russian border should be established once again:

A. Dugin was for the home-market. Same stuff, only expressed in verbiage palatable for Westerners:

F. Lukianov, editor in chief of the established journal "Russia in Global Affairs" lately elaborated on what he describes as "Zwischeneuropa", Namely - states which "emerged as a result of the collapse of European empires at the beginning of 20th century", namely Central Europe and the Balkans. Łukianov expresses concern that these states are in danger of slipping into chaos, "even seemingly stable Poland and Chech Republic are endangered by extremist nationalism" Ługin does not specify what he means, but the ring is suitably ominous - calculated to strike dread in the hearts of a Westerner. It works too, notice all posts expressing grave concern about Ukrainian nationalists these days - they don't all come from paid RIA posters - enough to drop dark hints here and there and watch Germans, Belgians, Brits and French start squawking of their own accord. Btw, Russia has been creating and sponsoring fringe rightist movements in countries of the area, including Poland (fortunately, Poles are too experienced in Kremlin games to fall for these in any serious number)

A little more on the Kremlin's pet theme:

The states of "Zwisheneuropa" are becoming dangerous spots of instability. This unimportant region is drawing attention away from regions that really matter (Pacific - trl. "America, why bother with Europe"). Therefore, it's in everybody's best interest for Russia and the EU (naturally meaning "old EU") to "cooperate in helping these countries, so confused about their identity" :)lol:)

In plain speech, Lukianov (Putin's man, Chairman of Presidium of the Council on Foreign and Defense Policy) proposes a joint Russian-Brussels condominum. Whether refers to Central Europe, the Balkans, Eastern Europe or all of these remains properly vague - the point is when talking about EU he refers exclusively to the "old Union" , Lugin refers to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia,Estonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary as if these weren't EU members. The bait of "Russia-EU special cooperation" is chiefly primarily to Germany, secondarily to immigrant-weary societies of "old Europe". Discouragement with the EU project and especially EU-enlargement is assiduously fanned. The aim is to create a climate in which Rusian aggression and annexation of European "peripheries" is swallowed without resistance in London, Brussels and chiefly Berlin.

Defense of the opressed Russian minority in Sudettenland becomes a moral imperative.

Nobody wants to die for Kiev, Klajpeda or Tallin. Western papers issue kilometers of print analysing the issue and taking special care to avoid one-sidedness. European diplomats "condemn" and "express concern". European banks do business, as do producers of Mistrals and other high end military technology ("they'll sell us the rope on which we'll hang them")

Don't know if it's more boring to watch the Kremlin regurgitate same old hackneyed foreign policy, or Europe display the same old fecklessness and complacence.

Where will it all end, God knows.

According to Lukianov, half of European nations have "problems with their identity" - they are not yet aware, that they should be Russians !!!
 
Ummm, no. All it means is that the joint guarantee of Ukraine's territorial integrity is broken unilaterally by Russia. But feel free to blame the US and UK for Russia's untrustworthiness.
Well I blame UK and US for setting Kosovo precedent as well as lack of reaction during War in Georgia (in 2008 - yes it both was during Bush term, but Obama's reset policy towards Russia came soon after, and he also validated Bush's stance on Kosovo)
And yes I blame USA and UK for lack of reaction to Russia's untrustworthiness, (e.g. lack of economic sanctions or at least announcement of plans to export gas to Europe), which in turn makes UK and USA also untrustworthy and in addition unreliable
(inb4 Domen's post about Yalta Conference and Western Betrayal)
 
Ukrainians (as well as other non-Russian Europeans) have "problems with their identity", as Russian activist F. Lukianov explained.

Being Ukrainian ("Little-Russian" according to Great-Russians) is so fascist and inferior.

Being Great-Russian ("Muscovite" according to Ukrainians) is much more trendy, superior and totally non-fascist.

Everyone who claim that they are not Russians, are national chauvinists! Shame to them!

Only being Great-Russian can save a person from being a fascist and a national chauvinist!

==============================================

Here is what A. Dugin - a Russian lunatic and head of the Eurasian Youth Union - recently said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Youth_Union

"Russia's march of liberation won't stop at Crimea, the Dniepr, nor even the Western border of ex-Ukraine.

Our aim is liberating entire Europe from the Atlantic occupants."

(A. Dugin)

Come on, is this guy serious? Not even 100 years ago his great-grandfathers tried to achieve the same goal, but failed:


Link to video.

============================================

European Union is still debating whether to impose sanctions, while Russia is already imposing its own sanctions:

http://ukrainianpolicy.com/russia-sanctions-lithuania-for-supporting-ukraine/

Russia has imposed sanctions against Lithuania and embargoed the port of Klaipeda in response to its foreign policy with Ukraine

On Thursday morning the Lithuanian parliament condemned the military aggression of the Russian Federation in Ukraine and its occupation of the territory of a sovereign country. The parliament said that it strongly supports the sovereignty, independence, and territorial integrity of Ukraine and expressed political solidarity with the new Ukrainian authorities; they also supported sanctions against Russia, while favoring visa liberalization and the early signing of the European Union Association Agreement with Ukraine slated for next week.

In response, Russia has temporarily suspended the import of food products into the Customs Union. If a Western (specifically, American) company wants to deliver goods through Lithuania to Russia or a Customs Union state, Russian officials will order it to go “through other ports which do not belong to Lithuania [or] to certain other countries,” according to Prime Minister Algirdas Butkevicius. Russian media calls Lithuania’s pro-Ukrainian policy “anti-Russian.”

Lithuania’s exports to Russia amount for a fifth of its total exports and remain an integral part of its economy.

“This is a way for Russia to show that having political positions which do not meet their interests are punished in some way,” said Robertas Dargis, president of the Lithuanian Confederation of Industrialists. “In Lithuania’s case, punishment is usually through economic means, which we saw many times previously.”

Prime Minister Butkevicius said that because of Russia’s actions, all the terminals of the Klaipeda port can neither “export nor re-export or import.”

On Friday, a cooperation and partnership agreement was signed between the Klaipeda State Seaport and the Port of Huston, Texas.

“Although these Russian commentators do not say so, what Moscow is doing in Klaipeda is not only an act of revenge against Lithuania but a test of Western and especially NATO resolve. In the absence of a clear and forceful response, more such testing of the alliance is unfortunately likely in the coming days.” said political analyst Paul Goble.
 
So much for Ukraine not wanting to live "under" the "specter" of Russian capitalism.

Poll shows limited differences between east, west Ukraine

In populous eastern Ukraine, more than 56 percent of those polled said they would prefer the ex-Soviet state to align itself equally with Moscow and the West.

In western Ukraine, that notion was backed by nearly 44 percent, while nationwide the figure stood at 52 percent.
 
Yea the key word there is "equally", Im not exactly surprised that the ideal situation to the majority of Ukrainians is not being forced to pick a side and be treated like a puppet by either side.
 
Only nobody "forced" anybody "to pick a side", much less treated anybody "like a puppet". Now did they?
 
Only nobody "forced" anybody "to pick a side", much less treated anybody "like a puppet". Now did they?

So you think the EU and Russia have just been letting Ukraine happily go along and pick a best of both worlds arrangement that benefits it rather than them?
 
So you think the EU and Russia were insisting Ukraine, or anybody else, only had free trade agreements with one of them?

Besides, the EU wasn't going to give Ukraine an agreement until they did something about their human rights, which the Parliament (not Yanukovych) refused to do.
 
So you think the EU and Russia were insisting Ukraine, or anybody else, only had free trade agreements with one of them?

Besides, the EU wasn't going to give Ukraine an agreement until they did something about their human rights, which the Parliament (not Yanukovych) refused to do.
Most likely, little other reason for the country to wildly swing from a totally pro-EU to a pro-Russia stance all the time when clearly agreements with both would be most beneficial. Then again I suppose utter government incompetence is possible as well. Either way the Ukrainian people are fairly hosed whether its the outside or inside screwing them over.
 
So you think if a country has a trade agreement with the EU that it can't possibly have one with the US, or any number of other countries, as well? That makes no sense at all.

And I fail to see how such an agreement with anybody is going to "screw them over", unless they are incredibly bad and incompetent negotiators. That does not appear to be the case.
 
So you actually think if a country has a free trade agreement with the EU that it can't possibly have one with the US as well?

That makes no sense at all.

What makes no sense are hypotheticals that arent particularly relevant to the situation at hand.
 
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