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US electoral system one of the worst in the world

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Ahovking, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. KMRblue1027

    KMRblue1027 The Crown!

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    He's not talking about anything really. He's just combining various conservative buzzwords to try to sound informed and having a point. People do it all the time just look at Yahoo comments, I recommend some brain bleach afterwords though.
     
  2. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    Why does that seem mad? What business could anyone in Wisconson possibly have telling us here in Missouri how to run our elections? We're a sovereign State just like they are and do not need their meddling in our elections. It makes as much sense as letting someone in, oh say Canberra, have a say in our elections.

    EDIT: Regarding monarchs, regardless of whether they are figureheads or not, they are still technically the heads of state of these nations. And mind you, I've nothing against monarchies as long as they are not in America, but please do not pretend that having your head of state determined by "insert peg A into slot B" is in any way democratic. And correct me if I am wrong, but technically I believe the Queen of England can still, again technically, dissolve Parliament if she so desires. It may not be realistic to think she ever would, and I doubt it would happen, but under the rule of law as it currently exists in the UK I believe she does still have that power.
     
  3. Ahovking

    Ahovking Cyber Nations

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    No I said by others logic America is MEANT to be the most advance the most democratic nation on earth and to be honest the United States lost that title in the mid 90s
     
  4. Ahovking

    Ahovking Cyber Nations

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    And yet according to the United Nations freedom index Australia, New Zealand, Britain, France, Norway citizens have more rights and more freedom than citizen of the United States.
     
  5. Core Imposter

    Core Imposter Deity

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    The use of electronic ballots that can't be trusted is one of foundation blocks for the eventual rebellion. The pressure is building up and its only going to take one more event. We risk the whirlwind.
     
  6. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    There you have it folks, proof. Jingoism is rose-coloured.
     
  7. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    Which is better for democracy (as in the concept of rule by the people), a powerless head of state who is not elected with all the power in the hand of hundreds of representative from across the country, or an Emperor-President with significant actual power and the will to use them who represent barely more than half of the citizens who bothered to vote (and really only by barely half the citizens who bothered to vote in Ohio)?
     
  8. Ailedhoo

    Ailedhoo wonderer

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    As much as I like to agree that a monarch as the head of state is anti-democractic (I would call myself a republican if the American Republican Party had not decided to set itself on ruining its name), our Queen is a consitional figure. Parliament is supream, not the queen. This has been the case since the glourius revolution of 1688. Head of States can be just ritual in purpose, as seen with the President of Germany and Ireland. Basically our head of state is a mascott.

    It is possible that Parliament dissolving the Queen, not the other way round. That is the power of 1688. That is the legacy of John Lock, the man you Americans have a lot to give to for he was the intellectual root of your inspiration and rebellion against the rule of the colonial.
     
  9. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    Anti-democratic to an extent, but I think the only thing that's more democratic is an elected (or nominated by elected people) figurehead leader without real power.

    Countries do need a single focal point, a leader, but giving major real power to a single figure who represent in some situation less than half the country (eg, W Bush first term) is far worse than giving no power (other than symbolic) to someone who represent nobody.

    (My favorite system still remain the one that was proposed in a tentative Quebec constitution back for the 1995 Referendum: the President is elected by Parliament, where he must have not only the majority support of the entire parliament, but the majority support of both major parties in parliament. It ensures that whoever the leader is really speak for the people, and not just some of them.)
     
  10. Core Imposter

    Core Imposter Deity

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    Yea, and all we lost in the bargin was liberty. Neato.
     
  11. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    Liberty to have your elections run in fifty different ways, thereby making it way easier to use dirty tricks such as turnout suppression?

    All hail liberty!
     
  12. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

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    Lol.

    LOOOOOOL!

    They should shorten it to only "bad guys" and "good guys" categories, so that intellectual minorities could grasp it too.
     
  13. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Ohio has about a 50% chance of deciding the election. Which is why it reflects on the election as a whole, and another reason in itself why the US electoral system isn't that flash. Why shouldn't someone in a non-swing state, such as say, Alaska, have a say in how elections are run in Ohio, given the Ohioan election is far more important to Alaskans than the Alaskan election? Noting that the Ohioan election is simply the business of Buckeyes (or so wikipedia tells me they're called) seems to miss the point that in reality, though not theory, the Ohioan election has just as much impact on an Alaskan as an Ohioan.

    Also, what's with elections on Tuesdays?

    This is actually indicative of the same thinking. IMO, you're looking at things far too theoretically. The constitutional monarchies of the UK and Australia are evidently democratic, and it doesn't matter how much power the Queen of Australia technically has to dissolve Parliament on a whim, because in reality she has absolutely none. If the Queen seriously wished to dissolve Parliament on a whim, she would have absolutely no ability to do so whatsoever. Likewise, though it might be theoretically correct to look at the US election as a series of individual elections in a loose federation of independent actors, that's evidently not what it actually is! That you would perhaps like the system to be as you describe (rightly or wrongly; even if I agreed with you that the Ohioan election should just be the business of Ohioans, it doesn't mean that in reality it is) unfortunately does not make it so.
     
  14. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Are you suggesting the Australian Electoral Comission is oppressing us?

    I'm a strident republican, mate, but the level of democracy in our system is not in any way reduced by being a constitutional monarchy. That's a strange furfy for you to throw out there.

    Look, the thing is, I look at your elections, and they look skewed and broken and unbefitting a first world democracy. Just off the top of my head, some of the stuff we've seen result from letting petty local elected officials call the shots: the suppression of voter groups with sneaky registration and other laws, gerrymandering, untrackable voting machines with dubious ownership, deliberately complicated and misleading ballots, the placement of inadequate booths in opponents' strong vote areas, miscounts, dubious recounts, dodgy counting errors, court interventions, all that stuff.

    From my perspective it all seems to stem from the hodge-podge and unregulated way elections are run by amateurs and low level politicians. It looks embarrassingly ramshackle and prone to corruption. I think this is part of a broader problem which is that the US seems to really struggle with establishing and maintaining independent non-partisan institutions, but that certainly isn't helped by having podunk local elected officials all over the country be allowed to stick their fingers in. Having a national level body sitting above all that almost certainly would improve things.

    Please understand that absolutely none of these above-described things happen here, and that more than that, the very idea that they could happen is simply not a discussion that gets had. This is because we have a single strong and independent body with a charter to run elections, and they do so fairly and uniformly and are considered utterly above reproach. So forgive me if the clumsy mess I see in the US looks outrageous from here.

    So, what interest do Wisconsin have? Probably the same interest I do in knowing my fellow Australians in Perth or Queensland are voting in the same system and on the same playing field that I am. Their decisions chose members of the national legislature, can affect the over all distribution and balance of power. Their votes affect me, mine affect them. The idea that people in parts of my country were living in a system where partisan politicians could manipulate how their decision-making worked, and that that could affect me, would be abhorrent to me. It's pretty bloody important that I can trust that dodgy stuff isn't happen to skew their part of the decision.
     
  15. Murky

    Murky Deity

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    This is not some conspiracy theory that I was referring to. It's documented fact.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting#Documented_problems
     
  16. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    So we should not be "following the lead" of those above us on the 'democracy index'?

    Some of the nations that use electronic voting (with rank on the democracy index):

    1 Norway
    6 Australia
    7 Switzerland
    8 Canada
    9 Finland
    10 Netherlands
    12 Ireland
    14 Germany
    18 United Kingdom

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting_examples
     
  17. Grisu

    Grisu Draghetto Retired Moderator

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    Switzerland doesn't really use e-voting. There have been a few pilot projects for cantonal elections/votes, but nothing large scale.
     
  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Funny thing is, it's pretty likely that Ohio is the United States in this election.
     
  19. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Australia doesn't use electronic voting in any meaningful way. I'd never heard of it being used at all (I don't think I've heard of anyone voting using anything other than a paper ballot; I voted from Istanbul in the last federal election and they mailed my paper ballot back rather than using some electronic system), but that wikipedia article seems to suggest it's used for deployed soldiers and on a trial basis at limited polling stations.

    Also, the ballot instructions tend to be really simple, and you have a separate piece of paper for each thing you're voting for (which is really only ever a maximum of two at a time, unless there's a referendum).

    Out of curiosity, how many polling stations are there near most people, and do you have to go to a specific one? I know there's usually about three within walking distance of my home, but in the UK, for instance, there's a shocking lack of them.
     
  20. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    Wee! I'm #3!

    are you high :lol:
     

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