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What do you want out of life?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Dekker, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    I'd strongly recommend against taking amphetamines. :ack:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=ritalin+depression+link

    Coming from someone doped up on the stuff from age 7 and who later suffered depression at age 13 (more $$ for the phram, I doubt they planned it but I'm sure the ritalin to prozac pipeline certainly wasn't a problem for them).

    Avoid amphetamines, SSRI's and alcohol if at all possible. Very toxic **** for your brain.
     
  2. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    I looked at the thread you linked and apparently I responded to it. That response still mostly holds true, except that I eat more meat than meat substitutes these days.

    Suffice it to say I think the issues humanity faces are severe enough that most human activity is either escapism or something quaint.

    Well, no offense to the land across the river, but I was really thinking of mountains, streams, and dense forests when I was talking about "semi-wilderness"!

    I don't speak psychology, but this is not "self-pity." This is more despair, or resignation.

    I'd also be very careful about giving out psychological advice - it rarely goes over well. Especially lines like "You just need to realize this."

    Yeah, my issues are generally a bit bigger than "I don't like my job" or "I'm lonely." More like, "Wow, the situation's so bad that all possible actions seem like a waste of time."

    I'm trying not to go into specifics. When I do, half the posters, well-meaning or not, turn into amateur psychologists trying to "fix" me with their unsolicited advice based on misunderstandings about my life. So it's best for me to stay vague.
    Pretty much - and you weren't too much of a dick to me, no worries!

    The bolded is especially accurate. I'm pretty anhedonic these days - barely able to register pleasure or happiness. And this does a lot more than simply preventing me from having good days - happiness and other emotional rewards are what's behind a lot of effort and curiosity. I can't be bothered to try new things, or learn new things, or even research some things I already find interesting because I no longer feel that little excitement, joy, or revelation when I accomplish or learn something. The joy of discovery drives us to learn, the sense of achievement drives us to achieve, and I no longer feel either very often. It's like eating your favorite meal when you have such a cold that you can't taste it. You know you should enjoy it, you might eat the food anyway, but the joy is gone, replaced with increasingly fuzzy memories of how it used to be.

    And when I so strongly believe things are broken beyond any possibility of repair, basically all human activity starts to look like either escapism, or like a child trying to put out a raging house fire with a tiny squirt gun, thinking they're making a difference. I almost have to marvel at how precious it is. So I question everything with, "What's the point?" And normally the answer is, "There isn't one, really." That sucks the motivation out of me.

    That's why what I want out of life now is to kill time for another 15-20 years.
     
  3. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    In no particular order.

    1. What works for you isn't guaranteed to work for other people. This is a big problem when it comes to people giving feel-good speeches about mental health.
    2. Thinking a lot isn't necessarily overthinking.
    3. That said, people prone to overthinking often have conditions moderately out of their control that exacerbate it (like anxiety can).

    There are absolutely ways where believing in yourself, and not listening to doubt, can help. But that alone is often not enough, and you shouldn't put it forward like it is. This is probably me overthinking the point, given that you advocated taking drugs if drugs are needed (which I agree with - there's far too much stigma against medication with mental illnesses and the like), but I just wanted to really flesh out the overthinking thing.
     
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  4. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    None of it alone is enough.

    My natural inclination is a bit similar to Phrossack: the worse things got the more alone I wanted to be and the more I kept driving and walking myself into the woods.

    The woods won’t save you, but they help a little.

    When you have to do everything to escape depression, or most of the things, we gotta celebrate each avenue out. Eating consistently so you have energy to act, sleeping at night and not too few or many hours, moving your body all day, believing correctly, being brave, gassing your chemicals (I switched out of the “healthy” cannabis to drinking, low dose stimulants, and occasional psychedelics, all in context), not believing everything you think, doing pro social things like making yourself attractive and then going for it, getting in sync with the herd/pride, meditating, having a direction and a purpose, therapy and counseling, helping others, taking risks, doing some dangerous things, and maybe most of all, staying focused and one integrated form for hours of the day.

    There’s more. And there’s foundations for them like having money to spend. You have to do it all. Briefly you can fetishize one to develop it and ride the high of partial improvement in the next one.

    All three times I was deeply depressed, dysfunctional and disabled, my health was bad too. They interplayed. Each time I feared I was hopelessly sick. Each time I did everything or almost to get out and each time I would let go of these behaviors one by one until I rode it all the way down. Usually I would believe being up was bad or uncool, and I would do something out of pocket and be deeply ashamed and want to change, become more perfect, maybe smoke too much, maybe quit everything that was fueling me in hopes I could gain from time and energy savings (hah!) and I would start another cycle down and then back up. Dunno what the future holds but I’m riding this one as far as it takes me.
     
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  5. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    If you're a plains guy you're a plains guy. If you're a forest guy, you're a forest guy. Substitute hillybilly for tornado yokel or whatever. :lol: The d-bags will always have a hot take to punch down. That's why they're d-bags. Eff 'em.

    So ****ing what? According to who? What the hell do they matter, other than d-bags often have power? Bunch of arsewads from Naperville that don't like being outside because it gets hot and once in a blue moon there's a bug we haven't eradicated yet. Eff them. Right in the ear. Or if they like it in the ear, somewhere they don't. They suck buttholes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  6. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    See this is exactly how I feel. My wife says all the time you're stressed out and depressed and it's affecting me, you had better fix it. And I try to explain of course I'm stressed out and depressed, we have young children, a tight budget, lots of time constraints, it's a very high stress time in our life and I get no time to play video games and that makes me feel depressed. Which sounds kind of stupid, but you can sub video games for any personal activity you use to unwind. I basically get no me time or not enough for my personality. And she thinks the problem is all me and I need to work on myself. She will say a lot you've changed a ton since we met, and I'm like duh I'm a dad now of course I've changed. That's not to say I want to be a cranky old man like get of my lawn guy, but obviously life is more difficult now that when we first met.

    I think the key though is acceptance of the things you cannot change. Change stuff you can, like if my kids are doing too many activities, scale back, or if budget is out of control get it under control. But sometimes your daughter will just wake up 5 times during the night screaming and there's nothing you can do and you just need to accept you're going to be exhausted and cranky the next day and try to deal with it. The problem for me comes when my wife says you're being so cranky and I don't like it, and I say I'm sorry I barely slept, and she thinks the issue is a personality flaw with me and not the environment. You need to learn to accept in your life that you won't always be happy or like everything. That's a huge part of the issue, that society has tried to tell us now that we should always like everything, you should love your job or get a new one, you should love parenthood or you're doing it wrong, you should love where you live or move. You're not supposed to love every aspect of life! Life is hard, accept it, change what you can, accept what you can't. It doesn't mean something is wrong with you if you hate your job. Sometimes you just gotta make ends meet.
     
  7. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    The land directly across the river from you is forested and hilly and has magnificent bluffs that run along the river. Southern Illinois is more like the Ozarks than the flatlands of central Illinois. If you feel like exploring some cool hiking trails along the bluffs, PM me.
     
  8. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    Your intentions are good.

    Your cure for depression is a bit misleading. You're buying into the theory that there's a linear result from doing a, b, and c, and then having x happen. If you do exactly these things, you will get better. Not that you can get better, simply that you will.

    Except this isn't true, and propagating that theory causes only harm. You'll have people who do all those things and then come out the other side the same or worse. Since the solution was so ironclad, so specific, there can be only one reason: they're personally responsible. The failure is solely their own. The cure and method is sacrosanct, so any deviation from "Mission Accomplished!" is an obvious sign that the person never really tried, or there's some fatal flaw with them that precludes them from simply following instructions. In essence, any failure to improve is directly tied to the individual. You've reduced severe mental health issues to being a matter of independent willpower and whether or not someone can follow a checklist well enough.

    I'm also not sure you can cash in on the disabled angle if you've recovered from being so three times. Don't get me wrong, it is awesome that you're better now, but it feels a bit like someone who got a mass removed and is fine, preaching to a row of long-term chemo patients about how they can cure their cancer. It feels dangerously close to the people who corner me at support groups and in hospitals and then start telling me about how they had what I had and now they're healthy and great because they conquered their mind and simply willed themselves to health. (This paragraph assumes you're referring to your physical health. If you only meant that your mental health was bad enough to be disabling, feel free to ignore.)
     
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  9. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Civver, you tried cosleeping?
     
  10. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Syn, your attitude seems to be preaching hope is bad/mean/misleading cuz some people wont get better.

    **** that, better to have hope 1,000 times and be disappointed 1,000 (more realisticly you'll have hope 1000 times, be disappointed about 998 times and learn alot about what doesnt work and a little that does along the way) than sink into a lifetime of hopelessness.

    You're spending a lot of energy arguing that Hygro and others are different from you and what worked for them cant possibly work for you.

    That feeling of negative uniqueness is a killer.

    Once someone is scared to have hope theyre basically already dead. Lost two friends that way (to eventual suicide), very heartbreaking.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  11. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    Quote me saying that and I would be glad to have a discussion about it. Otherwise, I have no incentive to defend myself against hidden motives being assigned to me.

    Hope is a great thing to have. That isn't what's being recommended.
     
  12. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    You read his post. I read his post. I have no idea where this comes from. He isn't advocating a cure. He's advocating on ongoing method for trying to deal with some of it. It's not going anywhere.
     
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  13. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Those two are diametrical opposites.
     
  14. MaryKB

    MaryKB Deity Supporter

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    I agree with @Synsensa, and I don't see that he's saying there's no hope, he seems to be saying that there's no guarantee of success. I find a lot of people have this attitude of "This thing worked for me, so it must work just the same for everyone," and that's just certainly not at all true in the slightest, right? Your solution may work for someone else, or bits of it might, but they might have totally different needs from you, there's no one-size-fits-all solution. But you also see people thinking things like "If you can't fix yourself by doing exactly what I did, then something's deeply wrong with you and you're a failure."

    You see this a lot with weight too. I put on weight easily, while my sister doesn't. She can be a bit preachy and judgemental, because she thinks her ability to stay thin is completely her doing, and my failure to keep my weight down is because I'm a failure. I eat healthier than she does, I drink less, and such and such - but everyone's body works differently, and I have a tendency to store weight which she doesn't.
     
  15. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Not really. Trying to be high status is pretty much how you fit in. And being low status is the definition of not fitting in (being wanted by the group)

    It's the subtext. And its not very subtle

    Seems to be that's what's being recommended, that and he's such sharing his personal experiences.

    You're under no obligation to believe him or think he has any insight worth considering but you're dismissing him out of hand and making strange analogies
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2019
  16. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    Blame it on the SSRIs, bro.
     
  17. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton How much Parmesan to put on your umbrella?

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    Look there is a theory in psychology that your ego, your identity, is basically an array of defense mechanisms to identify threats to that identity. So if you encounter such a threat, you will device ways to fight it off. A good illustration are political believes. If they are part of your identity, which they often enough are, your ego will strongly motivate you to judge attacks on your believes as an attack on yourself, your identity, and henceforth you will be more concerned with defending your point of view than with actually learning something or contributing something valuable. Because you feel threatened. Brain scans have proven that respective areas in your brain are active in that way.

    Now an ego-ideal is the version of yourself or your life which constitutes to you success. On an emotional level. It is what you want to be and, for whatever reason, what you think you need (to be).

    Third: Intrinsic and extrinsic motivation: Extrinsic motivation does not just mean that you do something, because a factor out of your control forces you to do it. It can also mean, that your ego-ideal forces you to do it, but that then feels like a factor out of your control forces you to do it. Even though it is just you.

    I used to have and still struggle with a quite deformed and perverted ego-ideal. It made me look at everything through the emotional judgement of my ego-ideal, made me unable to just accept things, and forced me to torture myself in a fruitless effort to control things in such a way that I could uphold my ego-ideal. It was terrible. Sucked the energy right out of me again and again, clouded my mind, numbed my heart, and my ego-ideal virtually replaced who I actually was. Had no real lasting connection to myself.

    To improve, I had to relearn to be open-minded and to not be afraid of failure or misery. I had to allow myself to be. And that was at times even more terrible. I cried a lot, I did a lot of starring at the wall and hating myself and fantasized about suicide (that ego-ideal developed for a reason - I used it as amor, but it was my own prison). But in hindsight that was a necessary and healthy process, because it allowed me to let go and be free and gradually, step by step, I could build myself a new identity with a new and healthy ego-ideal.

    Three iron rules helped me on that road:

    (1) Rigorous authenticity (don't BS yourself, don't hide from yourself or within yourself, don't try to be whatever, just are, stay connected to your vulnerability without seeking refuge in it)

    (2) Surrender the outcome (do not try to control the outcome or assess the „true nature“ of things but think process-orientated, small and practical, don't worry so much about the end of it all but about the steps to take, let go)

    (3) Do uncomfortable work (act, try to make a change)

    Now what I learned and took from this experience was how flexible and relative it actually is how people relate to themselves and the world, and what difference it can make. And I learned a ton about how people can resist change when they feel threatened by it. I learned that you can use absolutely everything to hide, just to have something to hold onto.

    So why did I think that this applied to Phrossak so well? For reasons like this:

    Maybe he just got a crappy brain and he can not help to think that way. Sure, what do I know. But this is exactly the way a toxic ego-ideal works. See the problem is not that there isn't a point. Unless you are religious, ultimately there is never a point! It is all just stuff humans do to keep themselves occupied one way or another. Sure. That is life, fine. But that is not your problem, ultimately! Rather, your problem is that you have to focus on it. Because your ego-ideal tells you to. Because you mistakenly believe, and feel, that this is important to who you are and who you want to be. But it is not. It is all in the journey man.

    But yeah, a depressed brain has much greater difficulty to see and feel this, than a happy brain. Because a depressed brain will look for reasons to justify its emotional state. But emotions are relative and thoughts make emotions. So if you can not be happy, at least try to be sober. Meaning: Don't try to justify your emotional state with objective reasons, don't try to fixate or control things like that, but rather try to see things as they are independent from your sensibilities, with an open and honest mind, and then try to work with them and try to derive meaning from action, not from identity or your dysfunctional ideals. Remove yourself from yourself to find yourself

    Looking for reasons why you should be depressed to me is just another form of self-pity. Because you try to validate that state, even cling to it, as your identity. If your brain is just a hopeless case - okay, then do that, I guess. Otherwise - don't.
     
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  18. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    My friend just sent me this link, I think its relevant to what you just said Terx



    Basically to get stuff done on a high level you have to convince yourself it is important in a grander scheme. If you can't do that you won't get stuff done (or you'll do it in a sloppy way)

    Without an overarching sense of purpose there is no reason to try hard. Everything you do, even boring paperwork, you need to remind yourself that its necessary, relevant and part of your big picture life plan.
     
  19. Terxpahseyton

    Terxpahseyton How much Parmesan to put on your umbrella?

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    Yeah ok my statement was probably too bombastic. Though I got that from the same Austrian 21st century clinical practitioner who also plays with Freudian concepts. I just wanted to drive the point home how much it matters and the ego-ideal is to me a great way to explain the mechanisms of it, because it goes beyond self-expectation, but regards your whole identity.
    And yes! Changing that is difficult.
     
  20. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I don't know if this is similar to just taking pride in your work but I consider that different. I've always known that what I do isn't going to save the world but that hasn't stopped me from not doing a half assed job. Take pride in what you do.
     

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