Why Edward Snowden is not a Whistle-Blower

[MobBoss]

I'm not backing off of it, actually - can I show you the text of the warrant?? Remember a few pages ago, I kept talking about the warrant regarding Verizon and you kept replying with stuff about Microsoft and Google?

Actually, I went and looked the warrant up. And i'm a bit confused because you see, the warrant was applied for by the FBI - its says so right in the application for the warrant....and domestic data is indeed the purview of the FBI.

The warrant is titled:

In Re Application of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for an order requiring production of tangible things from Verizon business network services Inc. on behalf of MCI communication services inc. D/B/A Verizon business services.

It was also a request for metadata only, so no substantive content was ever given over. That means no recorded conversations. Nor any addresses or even names of the customers involved.

Its not 'personal' information at all, but rather 'transactional'.....and in fact, the government has apparently been arguing that such data is public domain to begin with, since no personal information is affiliated with the actual data.

A good story explaining all of that in more detail: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/phone-call-metadata-information-authorities

I think a lot of people are spun up about this because they think their personal conversations are being turned over to the NSA. That's simply not the case at all.

 

[Perfection]

Actually, I went and looked the warrant up. And i'm a bit confused because you see, the warrant was applied for by the FBI - its says so right in the application for the warrant....and domestic data is indeed the purview of the FBI.

The warrant is titled:


It was also a request for metadata only, so no substantive content was ever given over. That means no recorded conversations. Nor any addresses or even names of the customers involved.

Its not 'personal' information at all, but rather 'transactional'.....and in fact, the government has apparently been arguing that such data is public domain to begin with, since no personal information is affiliated with the actual data.

A good story explaining all of that in more detail: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/phone-call-metadata-information-authorities

I think a lot of people are spun up about this because they think their personal conversations are being turned over to the NSA. That's simply not the case at all.

Well this activity as per my understanding is not PRISM which does look at the conversations of Americans. Snowden's leaked documents do show the NSA does read personal American correspondence (albeit unintentionally).

That said, metadata includes the phone numbers which I would classify as so close to personal data that it's pretty damn invasive.

 

[NewEnd]

I think a lot of people are spun up about this because they think their personal conversations are being turned over to the NSA. That's simply not the case at all.

All conversations, e-mails and other forms of communication are being turned over to the NSA when they ask for them in their broad warrants, every three months. That is what PRISM was all about, and why it is so worrying. That is what the facility with zetabytes of storage in Utah is for. Supposedly, all this is only stored for 5 years. Also, all of them are recorded, not just ones to foreign accounts and numbers. All are recorded and stored.

Of course, you will note the media has now downplayed everything, like it is just a tiny little bit, with FISA warrants, blah blah blah. No, everything is being stored. Now the media only talks about Snowden, not what he is revealing. They are in steep damage control.

Is the NSA actually reading them? No, well, shouldn't be. But the problem is, 70% of the NSA is run by contractors. Ripe for abuse and blackmail, amongst other things.

There other big story was "boundless informant" which has the United States collecting meta-data on all the citizens of the world using companies the US can muscle or cajole.

Wooo... ..look at Jordan! And now the US has tons of missiles and planes there.. ...wonder what the US is up to this time? Let me guess, it's classified.

The final big piece of this story is Britain spies on US citizens, the US spies on British citizens, and then they legally exchange that information. Cute trick, eh?

 

[Commodore]

Who says what make something right or wrong?

Exactly my point.

 

[Gucumatz]

So where do you all think he will end up in?

Ecuador, Cuba, Venezuela, a Prison cell, Russia, Singing about Daisy Girls, back to Hong Kong, Bolivia, etc.?

 

[kramerfan86]

Id say its Ecaudor seeing as they have a history of harboring the leakers. Hope he gets there and none of the countries sell him out on the way there.

 

[madviking]

Iceland, too.

 

[Berzerker]

I gotta admit to the entertainment value provided by msnbc and other "left" media trying to cover for the Dems by making Snowden the story rather than what he exposed, at least Chris Matthews mentioned a likely motivation behind Dianne Feinstein's outrage and demands for "justice" - she knew about the snooping, wanted the snooping, and even suggested the snooping. Might not go over too well in California.

now I'm not too sure why the Constitution is relevant, we're at war and if Congress wants to snoop, it can.

right?

I do believe wars give Congress (and the Prez) powers they dont normally have, and if I was in office I'd support the snooping too. Course if I was in office we wouldn't be in this mess, just a different one

 

[kramerfan86]

Giving the government greater powers because of "war" is a dangerous game, because then you get situations like this where we arent actually at war with anyone, just with an idea, so you get perpetual war and therefore perpetual war powers.

 

[Berzerker]

framers already gave Congress the power

 

[Formaldehyde]

So what "war" is it we are now pretending to be fighting again? The "Cold War"? The "War on Drugs"? The "war" against a handful of common criminals who became essentially powerless long ago?

The American public is so gullible.

 

[kramerfan86]

framers already gave Congress the power

For actual declared war, remind me who we have actually congressionally declared war on please. You see i dont mind it as much for actual declared war, when you allow it to apply for undeclared wars on ideas you are foolishly giving a blank check that the framers didnt intend.

 

[cardgame]

For actual declared war, remind me who we have actually congressionally declared war on please. You see i dont mind it as much for actual declared war, when you allow it to apply for undeclared wars on ideas you are foolishly giving a blank check that the framers didnt intend.

I think he was referring to the Patriot Act

 

[Berzerker]

okay, we aint at war

 

[MobBoss]

Well this activity as per my understanding is not PRISM which does look at the conversations of Americans.

No, this is precisely about PRISM, and is the exact program being discussed in regards to the Verizon wireless warrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

A document included in the leak indicated that PRISM was "the number one source of raw intelligence used for NSA analytic reports."[11] The President's Daily Brief, an all-source intelligence product, cited PRISM data as a source in 1,477 items in 2012.[12] The leaked information came to light one day after the revelation that the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court had been requiring the telecommunications company Verizon to turn over to the NSA logs tracking all of its customers' telephone calls on an ongoing daily basis.[13][14]

And also from the link I gave earlier:

The information collected on the AP was telephony metadata: precisely what the court order against Verizon shows is being collected by the NSA on millions of Americans every day.

Snowden's leaked documents do show the NSA does read personal American correspondence (albeit unintentionally).

Source please. Because from what I can tell that's simply not the case. There is a difference in metadata, which is what the released Verizon warrant specifically calls for, and actual correspondence.

That said, metadata includes the phone numbers which I would classify as so close to personal data that it's pretty damn invasive.

I don't really care how you classify it. If your phone number is not associated with any other personal data of you in the metadata then its not invasive at all. At least you can probably be sure the NSA isn't selling your numbers to telemarketers unlike a lot of other companies that you share your phone number with.

 

[MobBoss]

All conversations, e-mails and other forms of communication are being turned over to the NSA when they ask for them in their broad warrants, every three months. That is what PRISM was all about, and why it is so worrying. That is what the facility with zetabytes of storage in Utah is for. Supposedly, all this is only stored for 5 years. Also, all of them are recorded, not just ones to foreign accounts and numbers. All are recorded and stored.

What you say here is simply not consistent with what i'm reading n the media in regards to all of this, sorry.

And in looking at the FBI/NSA warrant to FISA, its not 'broad' at all, but rather specific in what it's asking for.

Of course, you will note the media has now downplayed everything, like it is just a tiny little bit, with FISA warrants, blah blah blah. No, everything is being stored. Now the media only talks about Snowden, not what he is revealing. They are in steep damage control.

So now your saying the media is in cahoots with the government to downplay this thing. Its a conspiracy now isn't it?

Wooo... ..look at Jordan! And now the US has tons of missiles and planes there.. ...wonder what the US is up to this time? Let me guess, it's classified.

Ah, what is your source that the US has 'tons of missiles and planes in Jordan'? This I would really like to see.

The final big piece of this story is Britain spies on US citizens, the US spies on British citizens, and then they legally exchange that information. Cute trick, eh?

Yup, quite the conspiracy.

 

[Perfection]

No, this is precisely about PRISM, and is the exact program being discussed in regards to the Verizon wireless warrant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)

And also from the link I gave earlier:

Read your own dang link and quotes. It was not explicitly stated to be PRISM. It may be a part of it or it may be part of some other NSA thing. We don't have that information. Also note that in the leaked prism pages Verizon is not mentioned.

Source please. Because from what I can tell that's simply not the case. There is a difference in metadata, which is what the released Verizon warrant specifically calls for, and actual correspondence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story_2.html

Analysts who use the system from a Web portal at Fort Meade, Md., key in “selectors,” or search terms, that are designed to produce at least 51 percent confidence in a target’s “foreignness.” That is not a very stringent test. Training materials obtained by The Post instruct new analysts to make quarterly reports of any accidental collection of U.S. content, but add that “it’s nothing to worry about.”

Even when the system works just as advertised, with no American singled out for targeting, the NSA routinely collects a great deal of American content. That is described as “incidental,” and it is inherent in contact chaining, one of the basic tools of the trade. To collect on a suspected spy or foreign terrorist means, at minimum, that everyone in the suspect’s inbox or outbox is swept in. Intelligence analysts are typically taught to chain through contacts two “hops” out from their target, which increases “incidental collection” exponentially. The same math explains the aphorism, from the John Guare play, that no one is more than “six degrees of separation” from any other person.

I don't really care how you classify it. If your phone number is not associated with any other personal data of you in the metadata then its not invasive at all.

I find that I had your phone number and the numbers times and duration of everyone you called, that would be invasive. But whatever you're just more open then me I guess.

At least you can probably be sure the NSA isn't selling your numbers to telemarketers unlike a lot of other companies that you share your phone number with.

I don't particularly care for that practice either.

 

[Zelig]

If your phone number is not associated with any other personal data of you in the metadata then its not invasive at all.

http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130325/srep01376/pdf/srep01376.pdf

"In a dataset where the location of an individual is specified hourly, and with a spatial resolution equal to that given by the carrier’s antennas, four spatio-temporal points are enough to uniquely identify 95% of the individuals."

 

[NewEnd]

http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130325/srep01376/pdf/srep01376.pdf

"In a dataset where the location of an individual is specified hourly, and with a spatial resolution equal to that given by the carrier’s antennas, four spatio-temporal points are enough to uniquely identify 95% of the individuals."

Fun game folks! (unless you have a tight security and scrub system like me... ... )
https://panopticlick.eff.org/

The Panopticlick! See how unique your browsing habits make and computer information makes you!

The real trick to this, is, if you political, or core set of causes care about, your fingerprint becomes Unique easily. Perfect for Big Brother!

Panopticlick has suggest how to fuzz up the fuzz!

 

[Perfection]

To bring things back to the OP though, because I'm surprised noone made this basic point. The law Mobby described only stated what defines protected whistle blowing. Nowhere does it define that a person who isn't protected by this act isn't a whistleblower.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-105publ272/pdf/PLAW-105publ272.pdf