Why we hate Hillary

[IglooDame]

WTH? Where are Grant, McKinley, Nixon, and Harding?

You forgot Poland Teddy! I guess he'd be lib'ral by today's standards so we'll pretend he didn't exist.

They're all listed on that site. Here's what they have to say about Harding:

Warren Harding became President after winning by a landslide of sixty percent of the popular vote in the election of 1920. When he became President, he excluded wartime controls, lowered federal income tax, and organized a federal budget system. Harding also set the highest tariffs in United States history with the Fordney-McCumber Act, and set firm immigration limits. Through his administration, he kept his campaign pledge-“Less government in business and more business in government”, but his Presidential term was cut short when he died of a heart attack on August 2, 1923 after pursuing a relentless speaking tour.

And Nixon...

Richard Nixon was elected president in 1968 and served one full term and part of another until he resigned in 1974. In his presidential experience, Nixon carried out revenue sharing, the draft’s end, modern laws against crime, and a large environment agenda as well as the appointment of protective, philosophic Judges to the Supreme Court. He was also in office when American astronauts landed on the moon for the first time. Nixon started a removal from South Vietnam, too, and deployed U.S. troops to deface Viet Cong surplus stations in the countries of Laos and Cambodia. And, in 1972, he lowered constrictions with China and the U.S.S.R, and created a treaty that would bottom out critical nuclear weapons. Later, in 1973, Nixon issued a concurrence with North Viet Nam that put an end to American enthrallment in Indochina.

They didn't even bother to note why he resigned...

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Harding may not have started a war, but that's because absolutely no one in the country wanted one at that point - they wanted to be completely isolationist and he was more than happy to oblige.

 

[Bill3000]

Given that Harding didn't lead his country into a war on gamed intelligence that lead to the deaths of 10s of 1000s, I'd say that Bush has him beat at this point. That said, there are some precious similarities between Bush and Harding; primarily their love the malaprop. Remember, Harding invented the world "normalcy". If only they'd of had YouTube in the 1920s!

Except Harding and his cabinet were so corrupt that it makes Nixon look like a saint in comparison, really. A war with only 1000s of deaths is silly in comparison.

 

[.Shane.]

Except Harding and his cabinet were so corrupt that it makes Nixon look like a saint in comparison, really. A war with only 1000s of deaths is silly in comparison.

Depends on the nature of the war. If you think that corruption is a worse crime than 1000s of useless, unjust, unwarranted, completely avoidable, yet directly caused deaths, they I'd next debate this issue of your humanity.

 

[Ecofarm]

Depends on the attitude of the person. That liberating Iraq was "useless, unjust, unwarranted, and completely avoidable" is a matter of opinion (very fringe opinion even).

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The question I raised isn't which one did the most total damage, but which one was worse as president. And I would say corruption makes one worse than starting a war (which is after all an ability the president has - sort of).

Also, you seem to have a definition of "directly caused" than I do.

EDIT: Also, it occurs to me how ironic it is that this time, I'm responsible for derailing it to a discussion about the Iraq War. Hmm . . .

 

[Ecofarm]

Also, you seem to have a definition of "directly caused" than I do.

I agree. Holding the US responsible for insurgent attacks on their own people is pretty weak. I would say the direct cause is more often suicide bombers.

And yes, can we get back to Hillary? Is this distraction some attempt to support Hillary by obfuscating a perfectly good hate thread?

 

[Murky]

I didnt realize the title of the thread had changed to "why we hate Rudy".....

We could always start a new thread discussing the former Mayor of NY.

 

[JollyRoger]

I didnt realize the title of the thread had changed to "why we hate Rudy".....

That she is just Rudy without the skirt qualifies as a reason for hating Hillary.

 

[.Shane.]

Depends on the attitude of the person. That liberating Iraq was "useless, unjust, unwarrented, and completely avoidable" is a matter of opinion (very fringe opinion even).

Of course. I'd say its beyond a fringe opinion, though, obviously, far from a majority viewpoint. And, regardless, I'd rather be right than part of the mob, other than by sheer coincidence.

So, given my view of the the Iraq debacle, I'd say Bush has catapulted himself to the bottom of the list. A viewpoint I'm sure you disagree with. Fair enough.

So, in more absolute terms (ie meaning where there's common agreement) Harding is clearly worse. That said, history is not going to be kind to Mr. Bush. Heck, the present is rough enough on him. lol, Harding was more popular at the time of his death than Bush is now and I don't see Mr. Bush's prospects improving, save some serendipity along the lines of Bin Laden being captured/killed.

The question I raised isn't which one did the most total damage, but which one was worse as president. And I would say corruption makes one worse than starting a war (which is after all an ability the president has - sort of).

Well, its a matter of judgment and values. If you assume the war is a borderline crime, then, you'd be hardpressed to say mere corruptions over oil eases is worse than the deaths of 1000s upon 1000s.

Also, you seem to have a definition of "directly caused" than I do.

Directly.... meaning that we initiated this. We have directly bombed, shot, whatever... starvation, loss of sanitation, loss of medical care, loss of electricty, that lead to additional 1000s of lives lost. There is a direct link to us starting, leading, and directing this war.

At any rate, nothings gonna change at this point, so I leave you to your Hillary hating.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I'll still argue "direct". Sure, we may be indirectly responsible, we caused the conditions that led to the deaths, but not most of them ourselves.

Back to Hillary: I really hope the race doesn't end up between her and Rudy.

 

[Bill3000]

Depends on the nature of the war. If you think that corruption is a worse crime than 1000s of useless, unjust, unwarranted, completely avoidable, yet directly caused deaths, they I'd next debate this issue of your humanity.

What, do I really need to point out Vietnam and how that was much more of a craphole than Iraq? The point is that a President is far more responsible for the choices of his cabinet, especially with the freakishingly humongous corruption that Harding's had, that makes any cabinet look saintly (yes, that includes Bush's ) than a given arbitrary war in which there isn't even a consensus over whether it was unjust or not, especially since Bush was actually honest in his ideology unlike Harding.

Besides, scholarly consensus is that Bush is a mediocre president, not the "worst".

 

[.Shane.]

What, do I really need to point out Vietnam and how that was much more of a craphole than Iraq?

Actually, Vietnam is a good point. VN is a major part of the valuation of LBJ's presidency. I'm not 100% sure on how/where he's seen, but I know that he's significantly lower because of VN.

especially since Bush was actually honest in his ideology unlike Harding.

A very debateable point.

Besides, scholarly consensus is that Bush is a mediocre president, not the "worst".

Most scholars will tell you that the juries out and that it takes time to form a more definitive viewpoint. I'm telling you, time will not be kind to him. And the present is rough enough.

Good reply bill.

 

[IglooDame]

Back to Hillary: I really hope the race doesn't end up between her and Rudy.

Indeed. From both an ideological viewpoint (authoritarian neocon vs authoritarian populist), an interested voter viewpoint (I think they both have enough skeletons in their closets to put a medical school to shame, and neither seems likely to take the high road in a general campaign), and a Red Sox fan viewpoint (Yankees fan vs Yanks/Cubs fan) I think an '08 campaign between them is going to make the '04 "two crappy choices" race look like Reagan vs JFK.

 

[Murky]

Indeed. From both an ideological viewpoint (authoritarian neocon vs authoritarian populist), an interested voter viewpoint (I think they both have enough skeletons in their closets to put a medical school to shame, and neither seems likely to take the high road in a general campaign), and a Red Sox fan viewpoint (Yankees fan vs Yanks/Cubs fan) I think an '08 campaign between them is going to make the '04 "two crappy choices" race look like Reagan vs JFK.

It would be more interesting if Ron Paul were to be nominated but it seems like the deck is stacked against him.

 

[Irish Caesar]

...and a Red Sox fan viewpoint (Yankees fan vs Yanks/Cubs fan)...

We don't have anything against the Cubs, but the issue isn't really relevant, as anyone who likes the Yankees is immediately blackballed.

This goes for Gov. Richardson as well, who says that the Red Sox are his favorite team, but he likes the Yankees too.

 

[Neomega]

She voted for the war
she voted for the PATRIOT Act.... TWICE!!!!

shes no better than any of the Republicans.

 

[Bast]

She voted for the war
she voted for the PATRIOT Act.... TWICE!!!!

shes no better than any of the Republicans.

And yet you support Ron Paul, a Republican. Enough said.

 

[silver 2039]

There's only two things that needs to be said here:

1. She's a woman, women are emotional, illogical, weak, irrational, and physically inferior to a man. She'll get periods and PMS, and mood swings and such while in the White House and what will happen then? She'll make bad decisions.

2. She wants to ban video games an authoritharian measure I can't approve of.

That seals her fate.

 

[RedRalph]

She is a woman. An unattractive one. That's all we need. If she looked like a supermodel she would have already won the election.

I dont know; I'd probably use a cigar on her if she begged me