Would like to debate with others on Communism

[Elrohir]

You said in yout other thread that Communism is against Democracy. This is utterly absurd. A Communism is a million times more Democratic than even the most Democratic of Capitalist countries. For example, in the Soviet Union (1919-1930, before Stalin turned it into a brutal regime) workers elected their own bosses in the factories.

Communist theory is very democratic. Communist reality is very undemocratic. Communism in theory sounds great. Communism in reality bites.

 

[Samuelson]

Okay- First, when I say democracy, I mean electing people to government positions. And yes, the people did elect their own bosses. That was good- but unnesessary. If a person is unhappy with their conditions, or compensations, (a) elect a representative who is socialist or (b) go to a different company and work there. (seriously) And how is having a group of communists make all of the rules without consent or voice of the people democratic? And I believe Lenin did say "We don't need a...democracy."

That quote is utterly rediculous. Lenin wrote a whole book called "On Socialist Democracy". You say to go to a different company and work their, but the fact is that this is not practical. It does not work if all working places have the same conditions (as was the case). Yes, it was a fault of the U.S.S.R. that some of the government positions were not elected. However electing a representative who controls an entire country is definitely not the same as electing a boss who will change the conditions right their. To say it is unnescecary is to be completely against workers.

 

[Emperor2]

By going around chanting "I hate communism!" you are obviously incapable of truly entertaining the idea that communism is acceptable. You cannot be dissuaded at all, so arguing with a communist is useless. You just want to rant about how communism is wrong.

I believe you yourself said that trying to convert a communist is part of the debate. And I have not ranted yet ( I don't think), and I have not simply said "I hate Commuinsm" once in this thread(I don't think). Arguing with a communist, for me, is listening to them COMPLEATLY and trying to dissuade them. However, I have often tryed to make communism work; never could. Am still waiting for a good explanation.

 

[Samuelson]

Communist theory is very democratic. Communist reality is very undemocratic. Communism in theory sounds great. Communism in reality bites.

Just as the Serf from a thousand years ago found it hard to imagine an 8 hour work day under Capitalism, the common worker from today finds it hard to imagine a 4 under day under Global, Democratic, Socialism.

 

[Elrohir]

Just as the Serf from a thousand years ago found it hard to imagine an 8 hour work day under Capitalism, the common worker from today finds it hard to imagine a 4 under day under Global, Democratic, Socialism.

Dream on, dream on. Communism will never take over the entire globe, because it is inherently unstable as a result of faulty assumptions about human individuals and human societies that lie at its core. I consider it much more likely that giant corporate conglomerations (Or a Muslim Caliph ) will be dictating things in 1,000 years than communist governments the world over.

 

[Samuelson]

I believe you yourself said that trying to convert a communist is part of the debate. And I have not ranted yet ( I don't think), and I have not simply said "I hate Commuinsm" once in this thread(I don't think). Arguing with a communist, for me, is listening to them COMPLEATLY and trying to dissuade them. However, I have often tryed to make communism work; never could. Am still waiting for a good explanation.

Actually, in your other thread that got shut down, you said "and maybe I will convert some commies."

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

I have often tryed to make communism work; never could.

How did you do that...

Set up a big ass ant farm or something?

Im still waiting for you to dissuade me. Im a communist, and you will find that Im quite unmovable in my political beliefs (Though, honestly they are not fully communistic, more like a Frankenstein Political creation patches together with all kinds of ideas and such)

 

[Samuelson]

Dream on, dream on. Communism will never take over the entire globe, because it is inherently unstable as a result of faulty assumptions about human individuals and human societies that lie at its core. I consider it much more likely that giant corporate conglomerations (Or a Muslim Caliph ) will be dictating things in 1,000 years than communist governments the world over.

Giant corporations already do control the world. Who do you think funds politicians.

 

[Samuelson]

My idea of a debate is listening to the opponent's argument and continuing in a cycle of countering arguments. People almost never come out of debates with completely changed political ideals, but it is mutually benificial for both sides to understand the perspective of the other.

 

[Kozmos]

Crap my old folks had loads of private property in the ol SFRY. And guess what loads of foreign rock music and drugs. Kauminism aint as bad as they paint it but it aint perfect either.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I believe you yourself said that trying to convert a communist is part of the debate. And I have not ranted yet ( I don't think), and I have not simply said "I hate Commuinsm" once in this thread(I don't think). Arguing with a communist, for me, is listening to them COMPLEATLY and trying to dissuade them. However, I have often tryed to make communism work; never could. Am still waiting for a good explanation.

Exactly. You've already decided that communism can't work, no matter what they do about it. I feel like I've said this before:

You just want to have a Red sit down in front of you and yell at him about how dumb communism is.

If you aren't willing to keep that kind of a free mind, then there's no point in what you're proposing, which would, as I said, be a free fire zone for you to rant at commies to try and convert them.

By going around chanting "I hate communism!" you are obviously incapable of truly entertaining the idea that communism is acceptable. You cannot be dissuaded at all, so arguing with a communist is useless. You just want to rant about how communism is wrong.

Oh, that's right, because I have before.

The fact is, and I'll say it once more, you just want to tell communists that they're wrong, and aren't ready to accept the fact that you might be wrong. Once you are honest with yourself, and are willing to accept that you might be proven wrong, then you will be ready for this sort of debate. Until then, you're just ranting at communists for being communists.

 

[Emperor2]

That quote is utterly rediculous. Lenin wrote a whole book called "On Socialist Democracy". You say to go to a different company and work their, but the fact is that this is not practical. It does not work if all working places have the same conditions (as was the case). Yes, it was a fault of the U.S.S.R. that some of the government positions were not elected. However electing a representative who controls an entire country is definitely not the same as electing a boss who will change the conditions right their. To say it is unnescecary is to be completely against workers.

Okay. HERE is the man I have been waiting to argue with.

Lenin wrote the book, but made it so that he was in power unless he gave it up or was forced out by government officials not elected. And he was not fair- the whole Red Terror, I think it was, when his secret police did what McCarthy did in America (I don't agree with McCarthys methods of random arrest), so Lenin was not REALLY very democratic. However, I will give you that he did believe democracy was a nessesary evil stepping stone.

And what Government positions that had a say in how a law was made were elected? Honest question.

And yes, a group of elected representatives controls the entire country. However, the majority elects them, and believes they will help them. If they don't, a recall vote or the end of a term limit will easily cut out that problem.

And if all of the working conditions were the same, move away! Or, in a democracy, you could run on a platform of making elected bosses a priority. However, having elected bosses, I will admit, is a good idea. But I do agree with having laws governing working conditions. So that would (often) eliminate the working condition problem.

Your move.

 

[Elrohir]

Giant corporations already do control the world. Who do you think funds politicians.

And I suppose those corporations are controlled by money-grubbing Jews? (It's a fair question - Marx was a anti-Semite, as were many communists throughout history) You need to stop being so delusional.

A question: if corporations already control the entire world, and they are your "class enemies", how are you going to gain control of the world to enforce your four hour work days? And do you honestly believe a prosperous global society could function with that little labor?

 

[Godwynn]

Giant corporations already do control the world. Who do you think funds politicians.

Then how come you are alive, and trying to spread communism through the internet. They would have already found you on a government database, where you live, and have taken you out as an enemy to their hegemony.

 

[Emperor2]

How did you do that...

Set up a big ass ant farm or something?

Im still waiting for you to dissuade me. Im a communist, and you will find that Im quite unmovable in my political beliefs (Though, honestly they are not fully communistic, more like a Frankenstein Political creation patches together with all kinds of ideas and such)

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, that Was HILARIOUS!!!!

Okay, In my mind. Like Marx tried to make it work IN HIS MIND.

All right, if you won't give me something to argue, i'll give something to you. Capitalilsm is more communistic than communism claims to be. Capitalism (this part, supply side economics) believes in lowering buisness owner taxes. This way the capitalist invests money in their buisness, providing for the common man.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

Okay. HERE is the man I have been waiting to argue with.

Lenin wrote the book, but made it so that he was in power unless he gave it up or was forced out by government officials not elected. And he was not fair- the whole Red Terror, I think it was, when his secret police did what McCarthy did in America (I don't agree with McCarthys methods of random arrest), so Lenin was not REALLY very democratic.

I've always believed that many of the things Lenin did were not reay good.

However, that does not mean Lenin was evil. Though what he did was terrible, I find them in a way acceptable at the time. Russia had just exited the first World War and was being thrown into a whole new war. Now then, sure Lenin could have tried some other things, but at the time he had to make choices fast and choices that, I believe, unfortuantly gave communism an evil face.

But you try leading a country out of a World War and a Civil War. Im sure its pretty damn hard.

 

[Emperor2]

Will be back later. Need to clean house.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

Capitalilsm is more communistic than communism claims to be.

No offence... But that is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard...


I also like how you mispelled Capitalism... Sorta cute, just like how the R in Toy'R"Us is backwards.

 

[nonconformist]

That quote is utterly rediculous. Lenin wrote a whole book called "On Socialist Democracy". You say to go to a different company and work their, but the fact is that this is not practical. It does not work if all working places have the same conditions (as was the case). Yes, it was a fault of the U.S.S.R. that some of the government positions were not elected. However electing a representative who controls an entire country is definitely not the same as electing a boss who will change the conditions right their. To say it is unnescecary is to be completely against workers.

Lenin had absolutewly no intention at all of installing any kind of democracy; from the moment him and Trotsky ousted the mensheviks in the 2nd 1917 revolution, and began the reign of terror in Russia, it was clear he had no intention of it being so. In a way, Stalin was Lenin's logical successor.

 

[Samuelson]

And I suppose those corporations are controlled by money-grubbing Jews? (It's a fair question - Marx was a anti-Semite, as were many communists throughout history) You need to stop being so delusional.

A question: if corporations already control the entire world, and they are your "class enemies", how are you going to gain control of the world to enforce your four hour work days? And do you honestly believe a prosperous global society could function with that little labor?

I myself was born form a Jewish family but became an atheist out of reason. Marx is often quoted as hating religions, but the reality is that he, unlike some religious extremists, did not hate religious people at all, only realized that religion is a veil in front of people for seeing the reality of what is going on (both politcally and scientifically).

Their are an enormous amount of jobs that exsist solely to administrate Capitalism (accountants, marketers, etc.) The removal of these jobs would divide the amount of work needed to be done tremendously. I strongly reccomend you look at the amount of money is used by lobbying corporations.