Would you go back in time to prevent your own birth for $1b?

[warpus]

The Scenario:

A time machine has been invented by Apple. It works; objects are sent forwards in time and appear out of thin air at the time and rough place to which they are sent.

The details of how the time machine actually works beyond what is written in this post are irrelevant to the conversation. The only real details about the time machine that are relevant are that the arrival time can be specified to the second, but the location has to be a 500m by 500m by 500m area - it's for some reason just impossible to specify it more exactly than that.

Sending objects into the past is interesting - they sometimes appear at the location to which they are sent and sometimes they don't. When objects are sent deep into they past, they usually don't appear, but sometimes they are found buried in the ground or otherwise displaced and/or altered. This seems to make logical sense - If something is sent 5 minutes into the past and nobody moves it, it will appear. If you send something 50,000 years into the past, it is far more unlikely to end up at the same place 50,000 years later.

One human has used the time machine to go back in time so far. Equipped with a parachute, a return parachute, a bunch of scientific equipment, very warm clothing, and a portable time machine, he was teleported 10,000 years into the past @ 12,000 feet / 3,700m right above the south pole. The mission was designed to minimize impact on the timeline, if such a thing exists, and the temporal shift was confirmed by analyzing the stars in the night sky using an iPhone.

It is now 10 years later and nobody has gone back in time since. But suddenly there's an administration change in Washington, new leadership @ Apple, and a mission ends up being proposed. The goal: To learn more about the nature of time. For some reason you are selected as the most ideal candidate for the mission.

Oh and by the way, the guy who went back in time is perfectly fine and there is nothing wrong with him medically or in any other way. The time machine is safe for human use.

The In-Scenario Question: (not to be answered by you)

What would happen if a human went back in time and tried to change the past in some sort of paradox-inducing way?

The Goal:

To get a better understanding of how time really works and possibly learn a thing or two about the nature of the universe and reality.

The Proposal:

1. Send a subject back in time to a time when his or her great-grandfather was a baby.
2. The subject will render his great-grandfather impotent and uncurable using some easily administrated method. The plan is foolproof - From the point of view of your great-grandfather, his life will unfold in exactly the same way had you not been there - aside from the fact that he will be unable to impregnate anyone, ever. Nobody else in the past will know you were there either. It's a really good plan and has a 100% chance of success.
3. The subject will then use a portable time machine to parachute in from the past back into the present.
4. A comprehensive team of scientists will study everything while it's happening. The nature and details of the science are unimportant for the purposes of this thread.
5. Apple will pay the subject $1 billion in U.S. currency once (and if) he has returned. No U.S. tax dollars are used at any point during the mission.

The Dilemma:

The nature of time is unknown and scientists are not sure whether you preventing your own birth will result in your demise, a paradox, or something else entirely. You could very well end up disappearing from reality altogether.. or nothing could happen at all. Nobody knows.

Obviously there is a moral dilemma here too, but for the purposes of this thought experiment you are to ignore it. If you are unable to do so for whatever reason, please do not engage in the discussion, if there ends up being one try to imagine how you'd answer the question both with the moral implications present but also with them removed.

The Questions:

Would you risk non-existence for one billion American dollars? How sure are you of your view & interpretation of how reality and time work?

If no moral considerations are present, do you see this as easy money, a stupid death, or something in between?

Feel free to include religious or any other considerations that help shape your view of reality, but do not use them to find loopholes in the thought experiment.

 

[Rashiminos]

Yes, and I'll split the money with my alter ego (S/he'll will be a lot like me, except..).

Moral considerations are present- answering yes may or may not involve ignoring them.

Something in between- There's an alter ego that wasn't there before, assuming the mission is successful. If it is not, I'll be lost somewhere and probably not in a sane enough mental state to care.

Birth destination switch / Reincarnation / Soul-splintering

The scientists will be largely unaware of the variety of changes that will occur.

 

[warpus]

Yes, and I'll split the money with my alter ego (S/he'll will be a lot like me, except..).

I'm curious where your alter ego will come from, if you were only born once. In most time-travel paradox scenarios there are dopplegangers at the end, because someone goes back in time, lives through their birth again, or ends up in a timeline where the birth at some point occurred. Since the birth did not occur a second time in this situation, where is the other copy coming from?

Moral considerations are present- answering yes may or may not involve ignoring them.

In that case try to consider both scenarios - one in which you consider the moral implications, and one in which you don't.

Birth destination switch / Reincarnation / Soul-splintering

Interesting.. I did not consider any of that at all when trying to figure out what I would do.. but I suppose that makes sense - I don't believe that souls exist.

I still don't see how you end up with 2 souls or some sort of a soul overlap though, nor do I understand the bit about reincarnation.

 

[Dreadnought]

I'd do it for the money. That simple.

 

[Zack]

Money is not important enough to put my existence in jeopardy.

 

[Rashiminos]

I'm curious where your alter ego will come from, if you were only born once. In most time-travel paradox scenarios there are dopplegangers at the end, because someone goes back in time, lives through their birth again, or ends up in a timeline where the birth at some point occurred. Since the birth did not occur a second time in this situation, where is the other copy coming from?

Part of me^ was born to a different set of parents^, at some other location/time. It's still true that I* was not born to my great-grandfather's descendant* and spouse* and I am now an anomalous presence in this new universe&. It should be noted that this person would probably not be a doppelganger in that sense that you're thinking about.

In that case try to consider both scenarios - one in which you consider the moral implications, and one in which you don't.

I will hold off on that "one"&.

I still don't see how you end up with 2 souls or some sort of a soul overlap though, nor do I understand the bit about reincarnation.

Roughly speaking, the soul exists before birth in physical form(s). The experiment's success led to the occupation of more than one physical form in linear time.

 

[warpus]

Part of me^ was born to a different set of parents^, at some other location/time. It's still true that I* was not born to my great-grandfather's descendant* and spouse* and I am now an anomalous presence in this new universe&. It should be noted that this person would probably not be a doppelganger in that sense that you're thinking about.

Alright, I get it, you believe that your soul was destined to have been born at that point in time and it will happen one way or another, be it in another body or whatever.

You mentioned that this thing occurring might lead to mental issues of some sort. I'm not really sure what your belief system is in terms of souls other than what you have just said, but I guess the implication is that in a balancing act between the said mental problems the $1 billion, the money ends up winning?

I guess my question then is: What sort of mental problems are you willing to accept for that amount of money? What's the worst you'd accept?

That's really what I am looking for in terms of answers in this thread. If you believe that there is a chance that you might die - what odds would tip the balance in the money's favour? etc.

 

[warpus]

Two seemingly opposite answers, but

I'd do it for the money. That simple.

Does your worldview lead to any risks in terms of the mission leading to something unpleasant happening to you?

What sort of certaintly levels are involved?

Money is not important enough to put my existence in jeopardy.

I think that I wouldn't do it, but for another reason. I think that I would likely continue to exist - but that the world around me would change.. in unexpected ways. It would either be a new timeline kind of thing, or it would be some weird vortex with tentacles, or who the hell knows what would happen. Maybe God would show up and slap me across the face with a system error. I like reality the way it is now and enjoy the lifestyle that I lead to an extent.. and I'm not so sure I could even be in a position to use that billion once I got to whatever reality I would end up in when this happened. Logically speaking it's a paradox and reality would work it out.. somehow. And I think I'd live on, but the implications of that sort of correction would probably mess everything up

As you can tell I haven't really figured out what my answer would be, but I am leaning towards the "No" side, for the reasons above

 

[Rashiminos]

Alright, I get it, you believe that your soul was destined to have been born at that point in time and it will happen one way or another, be it in another body or whatever.

Neither destined nor time specific. The fact that I was alive and eligible for the experiment seems to be evidence for a decision to incarnate in "the past." The experiment is not designed in a way to intentionally affect that "prior" decision, only change the pool of available options.

You mentioned that this thing occurring might lead to mental issues of some sort. I'm not really sure what your belief system is in terms of souls other than what you have just said, but I guess the implication is that in a balancing act between the said mental problems the $1 billion, the money ends up winning?

The hypothetical stipulates that the time travel itself works, both ways, and that the sterilization procedure works flawlessly. It would not be apparent to pre-experiment me* that something could go wrong, and answering the questions if something does go wrong might be worth it. So it's always knowledge and possibly money. The hypothetical did not present a reason to distrust the scientists conducting the experiment.

I guess my question then is: What sort of mental problems are you willing to accept for that amount of money? What's the worst you'd accept?

The risk being said yes to is total insanity V.

That's really what I am looking for in terms of answers in this thread. If you believe that there is a chance that you might die - what odds would tip the balance in the money's favour? etc.

Against:

"Fate worse than death."

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Hmm... which would I choose: the lives of my paternal grandmother, my great-aunt, my great-uncle, my dad, and myself... or a billion dollars?

Oh, and add the life of my paternal grandfather in there, too, since I once saved his life by giving him ventolin when he couldn't breathe.

Also add the lives of my beloved cats - because without me NONE of them would have survived as long as they did/or they wouldn't ever have been born.


I don't factor in my mother's family as much in this because they're just not important to me personally - although it would be true to say that if my mother hadn't had me, my cats wouldn't have survived/been born.


I honestly have no idea what would happen - a paradox would definitely happen, since an event can't both have occurred and not occurred in the same universe. A different timeline could (probably would) be created, since my paternal grandfather would have married some other woman and the equivalent would have happened on my mother's side. I myself would not exist in this new reality, since I am the product of a specific set of individuals.


Would I risk any of the existence I now know for a billion dollars? No - because there are people in my family (yes, including the cats) who are absolutely priceless. I would never negate their existence for mere money.


There's a saying I've seen around: "To the world you are just one person. But to one person, you are the world."

So my answer is no.

 

[Dachs]

Was this thread provoked by Looper?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I'll do it. It to me makes no sense whatsoever but rather is a kind of cheezy gimmick of sci-fi serials that I should stop to exist or the universe should explode because of a horrible time paradox.
If we are able to circumvent the time-line moving along it as we choose, if I am able to travel on this time-line back into a time where humans didn't even exist but I will exist nevertheless, why should it be any different in the future? Basically, if time-travel is supposed to make any sense, the moment you time-travel, you have detached yourself from the "time-line" and do not depend on it to exist. You just have to exist and that is it.

So I am pretty sure of my interpretation and would go for it. Plus even if wrong - I get to do something extraordinary. (It would be great stuff for a horror sci-fi thingy though if that just means that guy after guy is erased from history because everyone would vanish from history and scientist would just pick another one because they wouldn't know about those already erased as they never existed - maybe gong so far that a mysterious wave of impotence in the past crippled humanity so much that time travel isn't achieved anymore, at least not for a while).

 

[GoodGame]

Hmm....I'll take "what is a tavern question?" for $100 Alex.

I definitely cherish my existence more than any sum of cash.
Overall, this is a sort of suicide, barring it causing a many world events in which such a time traveling event spawns a parallel world.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Do I have any suggestions from the scientists as to the likely outcome. Something like "given our best guesses there is an 80% chance of you returning"..... I'd want something to go on.

 

[r16]

can't . Irregardless it's a Trillion or you are extremely suicidal . Paradoxes are mighty strong .

ı would know , wouldn't ı , commanding Star Fleet and stuff .

 

[Leoreth]

How do they know I actually do what they want me to when they send me back?

Because I would check out the stock history for my entire life, agree to their proposal and be sent back in time, then make ridiculous amounts of money and laugh at the idea that someone would travel back in time for a $1 billion paycheck.

Wait, Apple invented the time machine? Let me retract, I would refuse to use it.

 

[Gigaz]

I'd do it. I mean, from any science fiction movie about time travel it is rather obvious what would happen. I'd make my original grandfather infertile and then I'd fall in love with my own grandmother to become my own grandfather.

 

[strijder20]

In all the possible scenario's I can end up I'm 1 billion dollars richer and alive, so why not?

(Actually I could prevent the existance of Apple, but in that case I can get to the future and 'invent' the time machine. That future might end up wholly different from ours, but let's not dwell too far here)

 

[Murky]

You would most likely just create an alternate timeline.

 

[strijder20]

You would most likely just create an alternate timeline.

What about using that alternate timeline to transfer money from the future to the past and become filthy rich. Nobody knows you have a time machine, after all.