2020 US Election (Part Two)

[Birdjaguar]

All true. Court packing would undo a 150 year old consistency though whereas the crying about nominating another justice during the possible tail-end of a presidency is just that, whining.

And how many years of civil tradition and DOJ independence has Trump ended?

Can you be specific?

• Lying all the time to the public
• Using the DOJ for personal vendettas
• Using the DOJ to block investigations into his corruption
• Refusing to cooperate with congress on its investigations
• Classifying documents to hide his corruption
• Giving security clearances to people not qualified to get them
• Trying to exclude non citizens from the census; that breaks over 250 years of tradition
• Refusing to agree to a peaceful transition of power if he loses
• Declaring ahead of time that he will get the courts to decide the election and not the voters

You asked and I provided.

 

[Berzerker]

Unless I got caught in a wormhole and changed dimensions, Chuck Schumer didn't make up a bullcrap "precedent" to refuse to even hold hearings on the nominee in 2016.

He didn't have the opportunity. If he did I have no doubt he'd delay the process and argue the next President should make the pick just like he's doing now.

And you know this because? Like most Trumpers, you are projecting as a way to justify your position. It is the president that sends names for confirmation. If trump sent him names, I'm not so sure Schumer would be rushing things. If a Democrat was president, then RBG would have retired long ago and the confirmation would have been pretty normal.

I know it because Schumer and McConnell are shameless hypocrites ever looking for partisan advantage. Maybe you misread my scenario, it wouldn't be Trump sending Schumer names. But you're right ofc, if it was Trump sending him names Schumer wouldn't be rushing things.

I think you missed the dirty pool of 2016.

If the Dems had the WH and Senate Schumer would be pushing the nominee thru confirmation before the election and 2016 has nothing to do with it.

 

[Zkribbler]

If the Dems had the WH and Senate Schumer would be...

I love it when someone makes up something that hasn't happened and use it to support their argument.
"If a UFO landed in Central Park, everyone would start dancing the boogaloo."

 

[Angst]

I stumbled upon this channel recently. Open question, what do people think of it?

Republican Voters Against Trump

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC03-Q9vq-JyiStTnqasADVg

 

[Zardnaar]

I stumbled upon this channel recently. Open question, what do people think of it?

Republican Voters Against Trump

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC03-Q9vq-JyiStTnqasADVg

Never Trumpers only make up 10% approx of the GoP.

If Trump loses their problem is they're regarded as RINOs so it depends if the GoP turn on Trump if he loses.

 

[IglooDame]

He will probably leave the country if he loses, that much is true. He will flee to some of his dictatorship buddies, eg Turkey.

He becomes mostly worthless to them, and a liability as well, once he's not President. The only place that is okay with that is Russia, a la Ed Snowden, except instead of working against government surveillance and overreach internationally, Putin allows The Donald to make a home in the Moscow Trump Hotel and continue whipping up USian Trumpets from afar via Twitter.

 

[IglooDame]

Never Trumpers only make up 10% approx of the GoP.

If Trump loses their problem is they're regarded as RINOs so it depends if the GoP turn on Trump if he loses.

I wonder whether we'll see TINOs develop and want to merge with NeverTrumpers to re-form (and reform?) the post-2020 GoP...

 

[KaibaCorp]

You asked and I provided.

I can’t much respond to something like “always lying”.

As for DOJ stuff: they’ve been involved in trying to impeach him for most of his term (which I would say he is actually right when he says THAT is a refusal of peacefully transitioning power) on flimsy grounds and there is still nothing substantial.

 

[Hrothbern]

I can’t much respond to something like “always lying”.

As for DOJ stuff: they’ve been involved in trying to impeach him for most of his term (which I would say he is actually right when he says THAT is a refusal of peacefully transitioning power) on flimsy grounds and there is still nothing substantial.

Al Capone
Was that also flimsy about his criminal activities ?

Because the flimsy grounds to convict him for those criminal activities had never success

He has been convicted for tax evasion

https://www.archives.gov/exhibits/american_originals/capone.html

 

[Estebonrober]

I can’t much respond to something like “always lying”.

As for DOJ stuff: they’ve been involved in trying to impeach him for most of his term (which I would say he is actually right when he says THAT is a refusal of peacefully transitioning power) on flimsy grounds and there is still nothing substantial.

12 counts of obstruction of justice on an investigation into whether his campaign staff were literal foreign agents running a active op. I still think he is guilty as sin and has been since the Miss Universe thing. He likes Putin, he likes Russia, and he likes working with them and taking their money. Considering this is a nation who (now this part of the discussion I get more nuanced about) we have set up as an enemy and whom has played that role out quite well the last 15 years, I'd say thats a problem and there is more there then you give credit. Obviously there is a huge thread on this topic already but you do not get to jsut say "nothing substantial" without being challenged.

 

[aelf]

Why bother with the obvious concern troll?

 

[Birdjaguar]

I can’t much respond to something like “always lying”.

As for DOJ stuff: they’ve been involved in trying to impeach him for most of his term (which I would say he is actually right when he says THAT is a refusal of peacefully transitioning power) on flimsy grounds and there is still nothing substantial.

Well what about his lying? Are you saying he hasn't been lying for four years? There are thousands of documented instances where he lies and thousands more where he misleads.
Are you going to just ignore the other items on the list? They are all long standing traditions that he has ignored or trampled on.

• Refusing to cooperate with congress on its investigations
• Classifying documents to hide his corruption
• Giving security clearances to people not qualified to get them
• Trying to exclude non citizens from the census; that breaks over 250 years of tradition
• Refusing to agree to a peaceful transition of power if he loses
• Declaring ahead of time that he will get the courts to decide the election and not the voters

 

[Traitorfish]

https://twitter.com/KLoeffler/status/1316749393664638978

Openly embracing a Qanon candidate for an endorsement, in a purple state. When you were literally picked to appease moderate suburban women, and instead lunge far-right to appease the insane base. Loeffler isn't like this normally, she is a normal insanely rich looter type Republican, who has now spent millions manufacturing a far-right identity to win this race, and distract from her insider trading.

If it wasn't for the runoff, I'd say that Warnock would be favoured to win. Both Loeffler and Collins are trying to outright each other, all the while Georgia has been steadily shifting leftwards.

Perversely, I think these people might be America's first line of defence against fascism.

In most countries, fascist movements spend a long time in the wilderness, building up a core of true believers; the grifters and hangers-on only turn up later, when the movement has momentum. But in America, the grifters are there from day one, immediately swindling the disgruntled proto-fascists out of penny and re-routing their outrage back into mainstream conservative electoralism. It never gets the chance to build up its own institutions or its own sense of historical destiny.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the reason America has never had a true fascist movement because American's can't go long enough without trying to scam each other to get one off the ground, but I think it is very plausibly a factor.

 

[Ajidica]

Perversely, I think these people might be America's first line of defence against fascism.

In most countries, fascist movements spend a long time in the wilderness, building up a core of true believers; the grifters and hangers-on only turn up later, when the movement has momentum. But in America, the grifters are there from day one, immediately swindling the disgruntled proto-fascists out of penny and re-routing their outrage back into mainstream conservative electoralism. It never gets the chance to build up its own institutions or its own sense of historical destiny.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the reason America has never had a true fascist movement because American's can't go long enough without trying to scam each other to get one off the ground, but I think it is very plausibly a factor.

So basically we are too much like Ferengi?

 

[Sommerswerd]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the reason America has never had a true fascist movement because American's can't go long enough without trying to scam each other to get one off the ground, but I think it is very plausibly a factor.

That legit made me spit up water on myself laugh TF, well done.

 

[Lexicus]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the reason America has never had a true fascist movement because American's can't go long enough without trying to scam each other to get one off the ground, but I think it is very plausibly a factor.

This is a funny line, but I would question the premise that "true" fascist movements don't involve scamming and cynicism and corruption ranging from the petty to the kleptocratic. The major fascist states in history aren't exactly known for the incorruptibility of their administrations...

 

[Traitorfish]

This is a funny line, but I would question the premise that "true" fascist movements don't involve scamming and cynicism and corruption ranging from the petty to the kleptocratic. The major fascist states in history aren't exactly known for the incorruptibility of their administrations...

Oh, corruption and grift is absolutely part of any fascist regime. What I mean to say is, usually a fascist movement has to achieve some sort of proximity to power before the grifters attach themselves in serious numbers. They need something worth scamming them out of. In the United States, it seems to start straight away. Put six disgruntled racists in a room, and in most of the world they be ignored; in the United States, somebody will immediately turn up and convince them to transfer all of their savings into a special Jew-proof account in the Cayman Islands.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The real problem, as @Velegon noted in his post, is not the physical size of some Texas counties, but the fact that six counties in Texas contain half its population. For example, Harris County, comprising much of the city of Houston, has nearly 5 million people. Travis County (where Austin is located) has 1.2 million.

Where do you think most of the Democratic voters in Texas are?

I'm as much bothered by the disenfranchisement of non-mobile rural voters as I am about the masses of urban voters. The size of Texas counties is as much a problem as the large population of some of them. Granted, a lot more urbanites will be disenfranchised than non-mobile rural voters, but it is all bad.

This is 100% part of the acquiescence by other GOP as long as Trump is useful. Skewing elections with anti-voter rules is a long term Republican counter-majoritarian strategy, entirely independent of Trump. I guess the difference is Trump is, as ever, saying the quiet part out loud. And possibly going too far - a Trump tantrum throwing a contested election into doubt may result in a big enough backlash to undermine the counter-majority electoral skewing project!

Tim(PBUH) used to say stuff like this and I have a hard time accepting it - that basically the GOP had pushed this game so far that it can only blow up in their face and do them extreme damage in the long run. I think in a rational society with a rational power structure that might be true. Instead, we now have 30% of the country acting as committed racists and the power structure is warped so much that they entirely control it. I just don't see how their fortunes can be completely reversed without sustained work by the left over the course of at least a decade.

Sure, I think they're going to lose the presidency and the senate this year, but they won't lose so many seats that the Dems have carte blanche, nor will they lose enough statehouses to begin rolling back all of their voter suppression and gerrrymandering right away.

That great line the character delivers in the show, was expressing that there are still some hard limits that all the cognitive dissonance in the world can't cross...

I don't think there's any real limits to cognitive dissonance in determined individuals. We're already at a point where many people define racism as 'not me', even if they concede that a hypothetical racist would share all of their beliefs and actions.

I've been meaning to say something and these posts are as good a prompt as any. Starting about a week ago, any increase in the gap in polling is meaningless. Trump is looking like a loser and people aren't going to tell pollsters that they intend to vote for a loser (except the fanboys, of course).

Going back to cognitive dissonance, I think it does matter because Trump supporters seem to genuinely not realize he's going to lose. They live in an alternate reality, so the shifts in polls are an uptick in Democrats and undecideds coming out for Biden rather than Trump supporters suddenly getting shy.

For the life of me though, I can't see why the Republicans aren't caving to Democrats on stimulus as failing to do so is kneecapping Trump. The only possibility I can see is that they really have abandoned hope that he is going to win.

I think they also think they can get a better deal out of Joe and Schumer after the election and thus won't have to make all the compromises that Trump is trying to force. It's a risky strategy that is gambling with the economy, but the GOP is doing the same thing but from an even worse position.

I guess if there were legitimate grounds for them beyond “we don’t agree with their political beliefs/philosophy”. Only one has ever been impeached.

Pretty sure @Birdjaguar has already pointed this out but this is a really blind statement. You're ignoring all of the extremely good evidence brought against Trump that was forgiven solely because they agree with his political philosophy.

The initial cheating* should instead be rewarded by not countering it, then.

In the game theory sense.

I don't know if I'm reading you right but I disagree. The initial cheating was years and years ago. We're way past the point where it makes any rational sense to let GOP malfeasance slide in the name of tradition and harmony.

He becomes mostly worthless to them, and a liability as well, once he's not President. The only place that is okay with that is Russia, a la Ed Snowden, except instead of working against government surveillance and overreach internationally, Putin allows The Donald to make a home in the Moscow Trump Hotel and continue whipping up USian Trumpets from afar via Twitter.

I wonder about this sometimes. Will Trump fleeing to Russia be enough to break their enchantment? Will it be like Nixon after Watergate, where no one would admit having voted for him despite his historic landslide? Or will they stick by their man and we'll have to live with Russian interference in our process forever?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Sorry about how long that was, I had a week's worth of posts (over 10 pages) to go through.

 

[Takhisis]

One must admit that Tim would be having a field day with our new corporate poster.