Brexit Thread V - The Final Countdown?!?
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The most important thing now is that people switch from consumer and spectator to do-er and participant. They can save their own face themselves.
(instead of fearing the gods of fate)
Stop talking about something far away in their circle of concern and do something in their circle of influence.
Covey, mostly known from books on leadership, formulated that principle first. Leadership is to a high degree "taking (back) control" on yourself.
https://dplearningzone.the-dp.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/06/Covey.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Covey
Cheetah
Deity
Problem is that half of all the Englishmen are deluded, uninformed and brainwashed into thinking the EU is evil.
Having those people remain in the EU will cause to many problems further on.
The UK, or at least England, needs to leave, the aforementioned group needs to learn the truth, and then I'll be happy to see them join again.
Having those people remain in the EU will cause to many problems further on.
The UK, or at least England, needs to leave, the aforementioned group needs to learn the truth, and then I'll be happy to see them join again.
Yes and no
Yes, seen from the EU... because having the UK back in the EU without a clear 60-70% support of the people is not stable. And a cultural cool down period outside the EU a better base for such a decision.
No, if I would be an UKian... I would simply go for getting back to the status quo that functioned for decades, despite those sentiments. It is my right to want that and act upon that.
That revoke Art 50 action... it will very likely never reach 50% and certainly not 60-70%.
Revoking is not the same as wanting a referendum and when it happens vote Remain. But this banner is all that there is now. Symbol politics back to Westminster.
The higher it gets, the more pressure on Westminster to avoid no-deal... and more importantly: the higher the pressure to implement the May deal not at minimal WTO, minimal FTA implementation, but implement it towards a closer relationship, more alligned in living and working standards. Minimising the barrier to re-entry after 10+ years.
It could also increase the pressure on Westminster to go for a cross-party even closer relationship.
And perhaps a bit harsh of me...
Starting actions like this is not really non-committal.
if this action does not get a good support (far more than than a no-deal petition would be able to gather), and Remain has apparently moreover a TV, Facebook spectator attitude... and has mentally given up to fight for their cause... so be it.
Cheetah
Deity
Imagine having the Speaker or President of your parliament having to tell the membership that «they're not traitors»!
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47655280
But at long last we have a solution to the border with Ireland-problem: Just invade Ireland!
And of course Donald Trump Jr. weighs in on the whole thing with a clear head and good advice...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/20/world/europe/donald-trump-jr-brexit.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47655280
But at long last we have a solution to the border with Ireland-problem: Just invade Ireland!
And of course Donald Trump Jr. weighs in on the whole thing with a clear head and good advice...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/20/world/europe/donald-trump-jr-brexit.html
There was recently a study on how populist PM's and Presidents were all over the world. The amount measured by populist rhetorics in speeches.
For Europe Theresa May scored a comfortable second place behind Viktor Orban.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...etoric-is-as-rife-as-in-donald-trump-speeches
Merkel isn't populist because... immigrants? Funny, i thought she sort of enabled the whole austerity charade. I suppose not for populist reason and her Bild-reading electorate.
Compared to her Orban is nothing; just some ruler in Hungary who shows just how placid the eu is when all sorts of humanitarian rules are broken, but has no issue ruining entire countries to not allow a tiny increase in inflation.
Compared to her Orban is nothing; just some ruler in Hungary who shows just how placid the eu is when all sorts of humanitarian rules are broken, but has no issue ruining entire countries to not allow a tiny increase in inflation.
Lexicus
Deity
It's sort of surreal but at the same time I think May is mostly right and the MPs acting like she said something horrible are just being silly crybabies. They may not be traitors but they are certainly almost all cowards.
From what I read there it seems like the suggestion was tongue-in-cheek.
I really wish the folks at the Guardian would take the trouble to educate themselves on what populism actually is instead of using it as a synonym for "stuff we don't like"...
It was an academic study of rhetoric used. Cameron was never exactly popular with the Guardian either.
If you knew just a tiny bit of German politics, you would realize that Merkel is the antithesis of populism. That doesn't mean that her policies are good or that the rest of her government is devoid of populists, but her style is about as non-populist as it could be.
Lexicus
Deity
It was an academic study commissioned by the Guardian. It's using the sort of standard liberal definition of populism that's emerged over the past few years which has a number of problems (notably the entire point of democratic politics is to appeal to ordinary people, the basic definition of populism, so what does it mean that the liberal elite has turned against this idea?)
Frequently people are using "populism" to mean something close to the opposite of its actual meaning. In the US for example liberals have characterized Jim Crow segregation as a "populist reaction to a changing world" apparently without realizing that Jim Crow segregation was a reaction to populism, a cross-racial political coalition that threatened planter and banker rule throughout the country.
So she is just ruinous garbage and murderous by proxy, but not populist. Hurray, i guess. Moreover one has to assume that different brands and meters exist for what is populism in each country.
+ the trouble to nuancate the aspects when writing something
Pep talk of a football coach at the half time break, or a volleyball coach during a time-out, is also "populistic".
Populism has always been the fuel to rally people against existing dominating structures that block participating. Used by the left and the right, used by non-left-right movements.
What I see as biggest problem is when chosen leaders of a country with a representative democracy use populism to overrule, to diminish the constitutional power of the democratic institutions "below" them, like a Parliament, like the rule of law institutions, etc....
Lexicus
Deity
Now that's an interesting idea.
Yeah, I mean ultimately the problem is really eroding the constitutions power of countervailing institutions, isn't it? This may be accomplished through populist appeals, but where it is, imo elites should look at why these appeals are succeeding rather than going all-in on attacking "populism". Imo there is just as much if not more of a threat of "elitist" or "technocratic" erosion of popular/democratic institutions, based on the implicit or explicit rhetorical proposition that the people cannot be trusted with power, and the EMU is a prime example of this; the EU is also an example but less so.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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Don't worry, revoking article 50 is one of those ideas useful only as a diversion. No unverified online petition is going to provide cover for that. Is is certainly useful to keep the militant remainers busy while the last days are spent...
A new referendum to provide cover for reversing brexit might have been done, but the time to do it was burned long ago, it would have to be done after the EU made its hard conditions known, over one year ago.
May is also the antithesis of a "populist". Decides in secrecy and announces as little as possible, makes press conferences where she just quickly dumps whatever she has to say and leaves right after that.
Cheetah
Deity
So the rumors from the EUCO meeting is that they properly dissatisfied by May's answers...
Still, the common EU stance is breaking down when discussing what extension to offer the UK, and the current rumors has it that they will offer:
1. An unconditional extension till April 12.
2. If Westminster accepts the withdrawal agreement the extension will run till May 22.
3. Else, the UK has until April 12. to come back and decide that they will want a longer extension, and that they are ready to hold EU Parliamentary elections.
Still, the common EU stance is breaking down when discussing what extension to offer the UK, and the current rumors has it that they will offer:
1. An unconditional extension till April 12.
2. If Westminster accepts the withdrawal agreement the extension will run till May 22.
3. Else, the UK has until April 12. to come back and decide that they will want a longer extension, and that they are ready to hold EU Parliamentary elections.
yes
I think some key words/concepts (on this vertical axis) here are emancipation, participation, distance, communicating continuum, satisfying control on your own life.
Emancipation driving how much you expect from the system, distance hindering that expectation (distance from government scale/layers, or tech cq info hurdles (the specialists/technocrats), or cultural differences), participation a tool to diminish the distance.
When that all is "good enough" in functioning as a communicating continuum, governing "top-down" has the buy-in for stability on longer term decisions, and "bottom-up" has the satisfying control on its own life.
The generation of my former, meanwhile dead, colleagues had in general no high expectations in terms of emancipation. They had their rights in exchange for duties and by their democratic votes (high turn-outs), and by their trade union membership (high rates), they had their representatives. Well aware that this was not perfect, they did not expect much more possible, and were in general happy enough with the balance.
On the wave of the 60ies, the left put in the early 70ies emancipation and participation in their banner, highering expectations & offering a way forward to handle it. Participation funding + laws into community foundations and in workers councils becoming more than a resonance board for the patriarchical set-up of the 50ies. And it was implemented with enough support of other parties. The wave was bigger than the voters base of the left.
Society had become more complex since the late 40ies, causing more "distance", the peoples "wave" responded, regent elites were removed by internal political party coups, adaptation was made from left initiatives. And the communicating continuum was not only anymore from representatives up, governing top-down with civil servants., but also bottom up in society (not only the within the political party or union) directly towards civil servants and towards governing politicians.
I could describe more aspects. But this is roughly a bit my picture.
Also to that: where the emancipation wave of the early 20th century was more a finger pointed at you with: "we need you" ..... for the army, for your vote, for your membership....
the emancipation wave of the 70ies is more: "your opinion is important for us, your opinion counts"
It could well be that we see now a next wave of emancipation
and possibly again driven by "distance" from our increased tech-info-expertise-specialisation complexity, whether from governing with more refined rule sets, from science establishment with stronger impacts from abstract evidence (climate, vaccination measles), etc, etc... all diminishing our overview, our feeling to have that satisfying control on our own lifes.
And global finance proved to us they have no real control... yet having such a high impact, but of a kind so confusing that it is difficult to catch well, becoming a faith and evasive ignore element.
With the distance gaps increasing in the governing-to-people communicating continuum, the distance horizontally between people decreasing because of social media, but at the same time more anonymous.
That distance needs indeeds answers. Bunker mentality of the current regent elites not helpful.
The wave there.
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I think this, from 10 minutes ago, sums up the current status of UK-EU regarding May's visit in line with your post
May agrees to Brexit delay proposal
Donald Tusk confirms that Theresa May has agreed to the plan to delay Brexit until 22 May if she can get her deal through the Commons, or 12 April if she cannot.
Tusk is outlining the terms of the deal
He says the UK will still have the choice of a deal, no deal, a long delay or revoking article 50. A key point will be whether or not the UK agrees to hold European Parliament elections.
I call it a day.
My last look at the Art 50 petition counter shows 2,000,000
From 1,169,000 at 18.00 GMT that is 830,000 more in 5 hours
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Apparently the idiot woman, despite being in Brussels asking her 27 peers for a Brexit extension that only they can grant, refused no less than three times to explain what she planned to do if the WA was voted down again. I can only surmise that she never intended to do anything other than follow her plan.
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