Brexit Thread V - The Final Countdown?!?

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Old women voted less remain than old men.
That's quite entertaining.
There's a very old convention in certain parts of Britain, of husbands voting Labour as the party of the working man, and wives voting Conservative as the party of faith and family. The husband therefore reads the Mirror, the wife the Mail. Might be just enough of that to swing the vote a few percentage points otherwise than we would have expected.
 
What is more interesting is the 20% of women under 24 voting for Brexit against 39% for men. What is the cause of that.
 
What is more interesting is the 20% of women under 24 voting for Brexit against 39% for men. What is the cause of that.
I'd guess that it's probably tied into the perception that Central and Eastern European migrants are mostly young men looking for employment in manual labour, and therefore more likely to represent direct competition for jobs to young male voters than to either young female voters, who are more likely to tend towards retail or customer service work that is less readily filled by immigrants from Central Europe, Eastern or Southern Europe. I'd imagine that you men are more likely to regard the European Union as a direct obstacle to social mobility independent of whatever political prejudice vis a vis the Franco-German Ultra-Reich accounts for the shared baseline of 20%.

That, and a lot of young men are belligerent, swaggering idiots to whom the brainless xenophobic posturing of certain sections of the Leave campaign would more readily appeal. Bit of both, like.
 
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Biggest of the many failures of Nick Clegg is he sold out the LDP dream of genuine electoral reform in exchange for a seat at the big boys table.
Isn't that the price of admission to the big boys table?
 
I'd guess that it's probably tied into the perception that Central and Eastern European migrants are mostly young men looking for employment in manual labour, and therefore more likely to represent direct competition for jobs to young male voters than to either young female voters, who are more likely to tend towards retail or customer service work that is less readily filled by immigrants from Central Europe, Eastern or Southern Europe. I'd imagine that you men are more likely to regard the European Union as a direct obstacle to social mobility independent of whatever political prejudice vis a vis the Franco-German Ultra-Reich accounts for the shared baseline of 20%.

Possible but there are slightly more females from the EU than males. I have not found states for individual countries. The number of EU females could be inflated by marriage to UK nationals but I do not know.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....own-for-selected-groups-of-eu-nationals-2017/

There Eastern European Women working here in hotels as chamber maids, as waitresses, care homes and light industry (we have no heavy industry here) so UK women are also getting jobs "taken".

That, and a lot of young men are belligerent, swaggering idiots to whom the brainless xenophobic posturing of certain sections of the Leave campaign would more readily appeal. Bit of both, like.

This is likely to be a factor sadly.
 
There's a very old convention in certain parts of Britain, of husbands voting Labour as the party of the working man, and wives voting Conservative as the party of faith and family. The husband therefore reads the Mirror, the wife the Mail. Might be just enough of that to swing the vote a few percentage points otherwise than we would have expected.

Faith and family
When voting rights in the Netherlands for women was finally there in 1920 or so... the conservative liberals, the communists and the socialists, who had all fought so hard against the Christian parties to give women voting rights, were all "rewarded" with a big election loss.

And IIRC the same concern was the reason in France to endlessly postpone giving women voting rights.
 
This isn't much of an event imo. They're frustrated anti-corbynists who have made an assessment of their likely future career trajectories have jumped before they were pushed. My prediction: A blaze of glory, a fall from relevance, a sudden heel turn to support May's deal and the securing of a consulting job in industry.

Of mild concern is that they're a group, not a party. Parties have to obey funding rules and disclose donations....
Oh yes, but as soon as there is a snap election (more likely now that Labour have a smaller number of MPs) who's going to vote for them if they are not Labour candidates?
What is more interesting is the 20% of women under 24 voting for Brexit against 39% for men. What is the cause of that.
As TF said, toxic masculinity, delusions of grandeur stemming from imperial hangover, idiots who actually think that Nigel Farridge dropping by to grin like a crocodile and have a pint means he's right… just look at Chukchi Husky's ‘friends’ from RL.
 
That, and a lot of young men are belligerent, swaggering idiots to whom the brainless xenophobic posturing of certain sections of the Leave campaign would more readily appeal. Bit of both, like.
I have a hunch that those young men who voted Leave are statistically likely to have also taken the Tide Pod challenge.....
 

I'll probably be accused by someone of "conspiracy theorizing", but I feel I must point out that people do not place their signature or their age on the votes they cast. These are not statistics on facts (vote results), they are poll-based extrapolations. Necessarily with a larger margin for error than any election forecasts, because the people doing these pretty graphics must divide their limited dataset into many smaller groups. It is not the same to extrapolate from 1000 possible voters on their choices between between 3 or 4 options, or to do so when you ask them about (or sort them into) 30 or 40 options. Some of the subgroups may be so small as to mere change during the selection process distorting the poll significantly.

And this is not brexit-specific, it's about all the polls used in political discussions. They're useful, but a lot of salt is advised.

Please take this uncertainty into account when repeating "xx% of group abc voted for xyz". Just because someone published a claim that it was so.

Its EU fault that the EU has all these trained trade negotiators and the UK had non because, UK all resigned knowing what was about to happen
Then the UK got hosed by EU veterans negotiators who knew what they were doing

I'm not concerned about the skill of the UK's negotiators. I'm concerned whether or not the EU negotiators acted within their mandate, thinly democratic as it might be (what the representatives in the council told them to do), or they acted on their own, or the Commisson's will. and goals in opposition to that mandate.

If indeed the UK and the EU split without a deal, you can bet this will become an issue. Too late.

Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger, Chris Leslie, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes, Gavin Shuker and Ann Coffey have left Labour.

I'm sure they won't be missed by those who remain in Labour.

British regional airline FlyBMI has collapsed blaming Brexit uncertainty stopping them getting new contracts among other reasons.

Someone should have advised these germans to blamed brexit too. "among other reasons", why not brexit, so convenient an excuse.

It's the reverse-EU: anything wrong was blamed nn the EU, now anything wrong will be blamed on brexit. I wonder if another global financial crash will be blamed on brexit...
 
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It's the reverse-EU: anything wrong was blamed nn the EU, now anything wrong will be blamed on brexit. I wonder if another global financial crash will be blamed on brexit...
Except for the Conservatives and Brexiteers, who will still blame anything bad happening on the EU and their Remoaner Lackeys.
 
Someone should have advised these germans to blamed brexit too. "among other reasons", why not brexit, so convenient an excuse.

It's the reverse-EU: anything wrong was blamed nn the EU, now anything wrong will be blamed on brexit. I wonder if another global financial crash will be blamed on brexit...

Brexit will for a long time be a serious factor.

When I walk the dog and there has been a storm there are twigs and small branches everywhere. When it is a real storm the toppled trees are on the news.
Being ultimately better than your competitors is often surviving that really nasty storm where others do not, from structural or business model effects or just some tough luck on top.

Airlines have roughly 20-30% kerosene cost. When the oil price was $100 a barrel up to 2015, the UK airlines suffered less because the Pound was strong at $1.60 and the Euro weak at $1.10-$1.15. That German carrier survived but had according to that article this year a lot of maintenance bad luck (....), and probably little reserves left. Since a year or so the oil price is high again at $75. The Pound down from Brexit to $1.30: a double whammy, if not a triple whammy, because UK people going on holiday are also hit by the weak Pound, less money to spend. and the price battle between UK carriers only more ferocious.

When after the GFC the Swiss Franc suddenly became much stronger, it was a huge blow for the Swiss industry: their export products were suddenly 20% more expensive and customers had either prices in their currency or were not prepared to pay the price increase. A lot of costly efforts were done by the Swiss central bank to mitigate.
But most companies, from typical family owned Mittelstand (the small-medium) to big companies companies had reserves, were solid healthy, and could ride the storm, meanwhile making a race on efficiency.

Brexit is just like the trade wars of Trump and the oil price, and so many other big factors for specific industries, like the diesel wind down... Brexit is a storm factor and the weak and unlucky go down or choose to stop because they have no, or cannot afford to have justified hope.
And.... family owned business, long enough after the start up, is often much more resilient to storms. Much less domino effect risk.

I'll probably be accused by someone of "conspiracy theorizing", but I feel I must point out that people do not place their signature or their age on the votes they cast. These are not statistics on facts (vote results), they are poll-based extrapolations. Necessarily with a larger margin for error than any election forecasts, because the people doing these pretty graphics must divide their limited dataset into many smaller groups. It is not the same to extrapolate from 1000 possible voters on their choices between between 3 or 4 options, or to do so when you ask them about (or sort them into) 30 or 40 options. Some of the subgroups may be so small as to mere change during the selection process distorting the poll significantly.

And this is not brexit-specific, it's about all the polls used in political discussions. They're useful, but a lot of salt is advised.

Please take this uncertainty into account when repeating "xx% of group abc voted for xyz". Just because someone published a claim that it was so.

In general yes.
There have been done meanwhile so many different polls on this effect, that I think the conclusion that the effect is there is solid.

I wonder BTW whether it is custom in the UK to do exit-polls. Poll directly the voter with a set of detailed questions when the vote was done. Such info at proper scale for reliability is important for a democracy to understand what happened and why.
 
Possible but there are slightly more females from the EU than males. I have not found states for individual countries. The number of EU females could be inflated by marriage to UK nationals but I do not know.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac....own-for-selected-groups-of-eu-nationals-2017/

There Eastern European Women working here in hotels as chamber maids, as waitresses, care homes and light industry (we have no heavy industry here) so UK women are also getting jobs "taken".
Well, this is where "perception" is important. However true it actually is, the stereotype of the EU immigrant is a Polish plumber or a Romanian farm-hand. Moreover, there is still a certain statue attached to manual labour among men which is not attached to hospitality work or light industry among women, so any actual competition for jobs becomes exaggerated by the perceived greater desirability of the jobs in question.

And it may be true, to some extent; there are 108,000 more female EU nationals than male, but there are 192,000 more female EU nationals classified as "economically inactive". They're also more likely to be over 75, and to have been in the UK for over 30 years. So, as you say, the trends are probably somewhat different.
 
Labour and the Tories will never vote for it when they dream of getting absolute power. There was a real chance of electoral reform in 97 before Labour got its big majority but ofc Labour went off the idea when it got its big majority.
Biggest of the many failures of Nick Clegg is he sold out the LDP dream of genuine electoral reform in exchange for a seat at the big boys table.
If you are a clegg you shouldnt play with spiders ;)
 
Isn't that the price of admission to the big boys table?
No, not really.

All the polls prior to the 2010 GE showed that it was likely to produce a hung Parliament, where no party won more than 50% of the seats outright*. Nick Clegg had therefore pledged (before the election) to offer a coalition to whichever of the bigger 2 parties got the larger minority -- which turned out to be CallMeDave's Conservatives, by a narrow margin (but with Broon's NuLabour not far behind).

*(The UK's ludicrously gerrymandered FPTP system tends to give the Cons the edge in most GEs anyway, because they are the 'only' rightist party, whereas the leftist/centrist vote per constituency tends to be split between Labour/Libs; this is why the Cons can't afford to lose votes to a 'further-rightist' party like UKIP).

The Libs could thus actually have allied with either of the bigger 2 parties in order to produce a Parliamentary majority, giving them 'kingmaker' status. So they actually had the opportunity to set their own price of admission, regardless of who they joined with, and to assert themselves quite strongly once they were in (by simply refusing to support any policy they didn't agree with: their MPs would not have been subject to their coalition-partner's party-Whip, AFAIK). But because of Clegg's promise, he went with the Cons -- who promptly (and predictably) walked all over him.

The Libs had campaigned for a Referendum on FPTP vs. PR, among other things; instead, we got a Ref on FPTP vs. AV (which nobody understood, and nobody wanted). And one of their other major platforms was limiting higher-ed tuition costs, but Cameron raised tuition fees instead -- which a lot of (young) Lib-voters rightly saw as a betrayal of what they'd voted for. Which is why the Libs got utterly hammered in the 2015 GE.
 
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*(The UK's ludicrously gerrymandered FPTP system tends to give the Cons the edge in most GEs anyway, because they are the 'only' rightist party, whereas the leftist/centrist vote per constituency tends to be split between Labour/Libs; this is why the Cons can't afford to lose votes to a 'further-rightist' party like UKIP).

Gerrymandering and the problems with FPTP are different things. I do not believe that the UK has a major problem with gerrymandering, nowhere near ludicrous. Constituency boundaries seem to drawn in a logical manor to encompass neighbouring similar communities where possible rather than having very weird shapes to avoid some communities.

https://constituencyboundaries.uk/
 
Gerrymandering and the problems with FPTP are different things. I do not believe that the UK has a major problem with gerrymandering, nowhere near ludicrous. Constituency boundaries seem to drawn in a logical manor to encompass neighbouring similar communities where possible rather than having very weird shapes to avoid some communities.

https://constituencyboundaries.uk/
Northern Ireland of course being the exception in not having to follow the rules exactly.

Opinion piece rather than news article:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...nges-undemocratic-dup-sinn-fein-a8255851.html
 
I do not believe that the UK has a major problem with gerrymandering, nowhere near ludicrous
OK, maybe 'ludicrously' was hyperbolic, especially if comparing to e.g. the US -- but see Really's post for an example of how 'unbiased' the Boundary Commission actually is in practice...
Constituency boundaries seem to drawn in a logical manor to encompass neighbouring similar communities where possible rather than having very weird shapes
Nice pun, even if unintentional ;)

But if by 'similar' you mean 'politically similar'(?), that is still technically gerrymandering. And as for weird shapes, have a look at this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/UK_Constituencies_2017_(blank).svg

...paying particular attention to e.g. Pudsey, Sheffield SE, Suffolk W, Stroud vs. Forest of Dean, Aylesbury + Herts SW, Sussex Mid, Somerset NE vs. Bath, York Central vs. York Outer (why not N vs. S, or E vs. W?), Hampshire NE vs. Basingstoke (I could go on...) — and then try and tell me some of these boundaries weren't deliberately drawn to favour either one party or another ;)
 
OK, maybe 'ludicrously' was hyperbolic, especially if comparing to e.g. the US -- but see Really's post for an example of how 'unbiased' the Boundary Commission actually is in practice...
Nice pun, even if unintentional ;)

But if by 'similar' you mean 'politically similar'(?), that is still technically gerrymandering. And as for weird shapes, have a look at this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/UK_Constituencies_2017_(blank).svg

...paying particular attention to e.g. Pudsey, Sheffield SE, Suffolk W, Stroud vs. Forest of Dean, Aylesbury + Herts SW, Sussex Mid, Somerset NE vs. Bath, York Central vs. York Outer (why not N vs. S, or E vs. W?), Hampshire NE vs. Basingstoke (I could go on...) — and then try and tell me some of these boundaries weren't deliberately drawn to favour either one party or another ;)

Well many people do like to stay on their "manor" and many not feel they will feel they will be represented if they are lumped in with some others. Many people who live in a rural area feel they can elect a person who will represent them if their area wraps around the town and vice versa. There are also problems caused by following county boundaries and local ward boundaries. If you start ignoring features like towns, rivers etc then how would we decide on consistence boundaries. I suppose you could get a computer to work out 650 ( or 600) boundaries of equal population that were as circular as possible which would result in many towns being split but the boundaries would look better but I doubt people would feel that they were more fairly represented.

Your link does not work.
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/election-maps/gb/
https://constituencyboundaries.uk/

Re Pudsey it seems to be marginal for the last twenty years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudsey_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Newmarket is in Suffolk the area surrounding it to the west is in a different county. Many people get tribal about their county.

Stroud vs. Forest of Dean, well there is a river between them with no bridges.

Aylesbury how else would you split up the county and it is all Conservative commuter belt. Maybe the proposed changes in my second link above are better but it will not change who is elected.
 
The basic problem with British constituencies is that they're still drawn to be single-member. This might suit some rural areas, but fails to describe the reality of life for most Britons, who reside, work and live across multiple constituencies. This is particularly evident in Scotland, where most people live in two distinct constituencies, UK and Scottish, with varying degrees of overlap. (Mine have a 20-25% overlap. The last place I lived, they had a maybe 5-10% overlap.)

It might make sense to treat a genuinely "natural" community like the Outer Hebrides as a single constituency, but there's no particular reason why a city like Glasgow shouldn't be comprised of a single, six-member constituency.
 
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When after the GFC the Swiss Franc suddenly became much stronger, it was a huge blow for the Swiss industry: their export products were suddenly 20% more expensive and customers had either prices in their currency or were not prepared to pay the price increase. A lot of costly efforts were done by the Swiss central bank to mitigate.

This is somewhat off-topic, I just want to say that I'm not sure they were costly at all. In terms of formal accounting, they might turn out to be. But exchanging newly created francs for foreign assets is always a winning proposition. The only way to lose on it would be if foreigners want to exchange all those francs back for assets, but the swiss did their buying when the franc was "expensive"/ assets were "cheap".

They managed to pull off what Britain did in the heydays of the Sterling, or what the US does now. There's the downside of ending up with an over-sized financial system (very much a source of problems for the UK in the 1950s-80s), but it's not as if that will be new for Switzerland.

Even today the pound is still overused as a currency. That does expose to UK to certain risks, but it also grants it leverage. I thing their citizens are worse off because of it. But I'm not saying this because of the UK's international position and risks associated with "investors" dumping the pound. I'm saying it because finance gained far too much power inside the UK, because of what it did to internal politics inside the UK. It's interesting that Switzerland bet on banking a long time ago also but does not seem as corroded by the consequences as the UK by the City.
 
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