Community Protest Against The Recent Actions of Birdjaguar

Do you agree that moderators have the right to reject applications as they see fit?


  • Total voters
    48
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Thlayli

Le Pétit Prince
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Jun 2, 2005
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The object of this thread is to obtain a reversal of Birdjaguar's closing of the stazNES preview thread, and to gain recognition and respect for the rights of moderators to moderate their games as they see fit.

Please keep all discussion civil. We advance this cause more through respect than through violent language.

This is not a platform for discussing a merger of NESing and IOT, which is largely opposed by the leaders of this community.

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Poll notes: Three of the votes in the 'No' column intended to vote 'Yes,' see below. Adjusted count reads 34-3 in favor.
 
I approve of this thread, obviously. I stand by everything I've said both in my thread and in WWW.

BirdJaguar has been for the most part a very evenhanded and capable moderator, an improvement from impersonal mods of the past. I think he has erred here, but I think he will eventually see our point of view.
 
I've sent my PM and will retire for the night.

And while I think azale was a little blunt, I stand by my view that he was entirely justified in removing arya.
 
Noting my vote for the affirmative, since due to a misclick I accidentally sent in a negative. A consequence of my current sleep-deprived circumstance.
 
I nearly made that mistake as well. :3
 
The reasons a Mod doesn't allow a player shouldn't be personal. It should only be for the good of the game. If the player wanting to join follows the rules, all is well and he shouldn't be restricted from playing.
 
Democracy in action. We do not give hard work on our part so that everyone has to be included by forum law. That is counterproductive.
 
More like mob rule. The best argument against this democracy is a talk with the average poster.
 
The relevant point however justokre, is that a personal reason for rejection often has a basis in a sound judgement regarding the good of a game.

Ergo, using the recent example as a reference, Azale allegedly according to certain sources rejected Arya due to reports that he was a detriment to various games he had played on elsewhere. You could argue from that, that the decision was a personal distaste for the man, but that doesn't mean that the supposed personal distaste isn't based on a reasonable consideration pertaining to the good of that persons game. Likewise to use a more hypothetical example (noting that Azale's rejection was based on more than hearsay), a GM could dislike a player he has previously played with due to that players behaviour, the dislike is certainly personal due to its experiential nature, but again, one certainly could not say that the causes of the dislike have no affect on the environment of the game and that the GM's concern regarding the player is invalid.

Sure, rejecting a player because you don't like them sounds like one is being mean. But such is life. Life is neither fair or nice and pretensions that it is are naïve and based in daydreams. The system customarily established here may not be be fair, it may not be kind. But it reflects the realities of the social contract that binds human relationships and as a consequence it works for the most part in achieving its desired ends, a good gaming experience for the greatest number. This alone is a strong affirmative to the argument that the norm should be maintained and strenuously defended from foreign attempts that seek to force the community to change its practice.
 
More like mob rule. The best argument against this democracy is a talk with the average poster.

So, you believe it is okay for full inclusion into NESes where the creator and runner of that NES has no say whatsoever over the participants? A... complete lack of liberty?
 
I would like to transfer something Jehoshua said in WWW to this discussion:

Just to put in my two cents worth, firstly I find this entire discussion between IOT'ers and NES'ers absurd and infantile.

Secondly on the actual points regarding the egregious mod intervention regarding a GM's right to exclude participants in his own game. It is precisely that, egregious, uncalled for and utterly and absolutely stupid as a matter of principle (I make no comment on the merits of the action towards Arya in the slightest). It is self-evident, and not even the most ignorant individual who frequents these forums could deny it, that certain individuals are counter-intuitive to the good running of a game and often ruin any enjoyment that can be derived from the same. Indeed in the games I have played in IOT, NES and elsewhere on these forums that has most certainly been the case. Understanding this, the whole point of the norm on NES (a norm sadly forbidden by imposition or custom established [I forget which] in the IOT subforum) is to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number by ensuring that such disruptive influences are swiftly purged whenever they come along. It also is, I would argue, a right of the GM who creates the game to determine who plays what he has made as a matter of course, afterall no one likes it when some johnny come lately tramps on in and tears the entire carefully developed aedifice down through malice, stupidity or just plain lunacy. Birdjaguar simply should respect the practices of the community and refrain from intruding his ideals where they are not wanted, and which are counter-intuitive to the needs of the community he is supposed to serve and support. The Creator of a game should retain the Summa potestas, the totality of power, over who enters his creation.

Finally, with regards to those advocating a merger between IOT and NES. It won't happen, and its a foolish idea with little to no merit whatsoever. The two groups by and large, exceptions naturally apply, have very different mentalities and are hardly "two peas in a pod". The culture of the two groups is clearly different and the sense of the people, is clearly different in each group. Furthermore the translation of the norms which govern IOT behaviour to NES would be for the most part exporting bad practice over here. Bad practice which I would point out as the reason why a good number of IOT's have fizzled out and died in a relatively short timespan, or been summarily ended by their GM's compared to some very long running, and indeed exemplary, NES's that are around at this very moment.
I believe he has an extremely valid point, including in the third and final paragraph nominally on a separate issue, regarding normative behavior. The imposition of regulations as done elsewhere is in my opinion antithetical to the heritage, values, norms, character, and culture of this community, and I for one wish to state outright my opposition to any attempt to impose the same here.
 
So the consensus, adjusted for misvotes, currently stands at 21-1. Pretty close to unanimity so far.

I think what Masada said about tact is important.

If a moderator, for example, knows that he needs to run a game with 7 players or he will burn out from the workload, or that the tone of the game is best protected by only accepting the highest quality players, he has a duty to reject people.

This is the way rejection works in the job market, in academia, and in plenty of other settings. It's simply part of life, and it shouldn't be personal.

Where azale might have erred was in emphasizing personal animosity rather than, as CD and others did, the severe qualitative defects of his application. At the heart of it, the moderator is making a personal time commitment to run a game of his choosing, and the players in it should consequently also be of his choosing.

This isn't to disrespect mods who will allow anyone to join, and thankfully there are many mods who follow that policy of inclusiveness as well. But forcing all mods to allow all players is unfair and just not right. It would be like forcing an Ivy League university to accept all applicants because well, they all want to attend so badly.
 
If the applicant keeps making crappy applications it amounts to the same. Why did this happen at all? I know the dude's old, but he's not our grandpa.
 
I voted the wrong option >_<
 
You can blame Thlayli's poor wording on the confusion. I came close to making that mistake too.
 
We did the same thing in the IOT's (we did a strike), but it did not worked. In the end, Birdjaguar will force everyone to accept his opinion.
 
Not unless we fill his PM box with well reasoned arguments and eloquent paragraphs!

NESers! To the PM box! There are about 80 of us. If we each send a PM that should certainly be enough to put quite a dent in Bird's box and confidence in his decision.
 
Protests are for hippies. Real men storm the palace and kill the tyrants.
 
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