Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth
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Calendar no longer seems to give access to the date... is this a bug or intentional? This is very debilitating when concerning UHVs...
This is with the latest SVN updates. And sorry if someone else has already brought this up, but it doesn't seem so.
This is with the latest SVN updates. And sorry if someone else has already brought this up, but it doesn't seem so.
hoplitejoe
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Late well done on the subforum 
Linkman226
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Ya, the religions are problematic in the latest version of DoC. Leoreth's working on it .
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ozqar
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The Chinese (in the 3000 BC scenario) have a ridiculously high research rate. I tried a couple of times, as Babylon, to get to writing first, but it's impossible. The last time I tried I even opened the WB often to check on their progress, and somehow writing in 6 turns or so. They also had some other 4 techs in the time I could only get pottery.
Okay, Babylonia's UHV is something I didn't think about. It was already close before China's changes so it's no wonder it's become almost impossible. Maybe I'll tweak the AI's tech choices a little to counteract this.
Caesar Augustus
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Yeah, between China's new tech progress, the insane food available at Varanasi, and the culture Egypt usually generates, Babylon is pretty well screwed in achieving its UHV at the moment. While I agree that getting to Writing first is a big challenge on its own, I would say the biggest issue is beating Varanasi's size. Babylon probably needs to be looked at again from top to bottom, considering its near-impossible UHV, basically useless UB (how in the world is an early Courthouse supposed to help if you have 1 city?), and awkward UU (Asharittu Bowman is fine and all, but it's useless against Persia and I find Archery to be a waste of precious research).
I would suggest something along the following lines:
Keep the "Most Cultured City" UHV. It's challenging, doable, and presents multiple interesting options.
Alter the "Discover Techs First" UHV. I'm not sure what exactly should be altered, but I like the concept. Maybe replace Writing with Alphabet? And then either tune China down a bit or have its AI prefer researching in a different direction to make it do-able? It would still be sending Babylon down the same research path, just a little bit further. Alternately it could be Mathematics, but then we'd need to put Confucianism on a different Tech further into the tree, which I personally wouldn't mind as Confucianism is being founded several centuries before the real-world birth of Confucius. I would want to see the Chinese religions somewhere along the Aesthetics, Literature, Drama, Philosophy branch of the tech tree, but that might just be me and that's on a rather different topic than the one at hand. Kind of goes to show just how interconnected these kinds of topics can be.
Replace the "Largest City" UHV. I don't think this is all that interesting of a UHV, and it's a pretty harsh limit on some strategies that people might want to try. It pretty well straightjackets your strategy, and even going optimally (chopping nothing except possibly workers and a granary) you're still pretty likely to lose it to Varanasi. I'm not exactly sure what to replace it with: maybe split the science UHV into two different parts, i.e., Discover Alphabet and Mathematics as UHV 1, Discover Monarchy and Code of Laws as UHV 3? Or maybe something different like Make Babylon the city with the most buildings? Really anything other than what it currently is.
Make the Ziggurat useful. It comes very late in the Babylon game and doesn't help at all toward the UHV. Totally underwhelms as a UB. Giving it an Artist slot, Culture, Health, something other than just an early Courthouse would be helpful. Honestly, I think an interesting UB for the Babylonians would be a souped-up Palace. Would really accent the fact that Babylon is only meant to have 1 city. I'm sort of grasping at straws here, I'm sure someone can think of something better, but the current Ziggurat has got to go.
Do something with the Asharittu Bowman. It's not that the Asharittu Bowman is bad, per se, just that Immortals will absolutely destroy them. Which, I get it, Persia is SUPPOSED to destroy Babylon, but still. The ability to do collateral damage is actually pretty cool, has a real possibility to help a lot in breaking big stacks, which would serve as a big help for Babylon. If you could also give it a decent retreat chance it might do its job much better.
Just my $.02 on Babylon. Most of all I think you shouldn't make any small changes until you've considered making some bigger ones.
I would suggest something along the following lines:
Keep the "Most Cultured City" UHV. It's challenging, doable, and presents multiple interesting options.
Alter the "Discover Techs First" UHV. I'm not sure what exactly should be altered, but I like the concept. Maybe replace Writing with Alphabet? And then either tune China down a bit or have its AI prefer researching in a different direction to make it do-able? It would still be sending Babylon down the same research path, just a little bit further. Alternately it could be Mathematics, but then we'd need to put Confucianism on a different Tech further into the tree, which I personally wouldn't mind as Confucianism is being founded several centuries before the real-world birth of Confucius. I would want to see the Chinese religions somewhere along the Aesthetics, Literature, Drama, Philosophy branch of the tech tree, but that might just be me and that's on a rather different topic than the one at hand. Kind of goes to show just how interconnected these kinds of topics can be.
Replace the "Largest City" UHV. I don't think this is all that interesting of a UHV, and it's a pretty harsh limit on some strategies that people might want to try. It pretty well straightjackets your strategy, and even going optimally (chopping nothing except possibly workers and a granary) you're still pretty likely to lose it to Varanasi. I'm not exactly sure what to replace it with: maybe split the science UHV into two different parts, i.e., Discover Alphabet and Mathematics as UHV 1, Discover Monarchy and Code of Laws as UHV 3? Or maybe something different like Make Babylon the city with the most buildings? Really anything other than what it currently is.
Make the Ziggurat useful. It comes very late in the Babylon game and doesn't help at all toward the UHV. Totally underwhelms as a UB. Giving it an Artist slot, Culture, Health, something other than just an early Courthouse would be helpful. Honestly, I think an interesting UB for the Babylonians would be a souped-up Palace. Would really accent the fact that Babylon is only meant to have 1 city. I'm sort of grasping at straws here, I'm sure someone can think of something better, but the current Ziggurat has got to go.
Do something with the Asharittu Bowman. It's not that the Asharittu Bowman is bad, per se, just that Immortals will absolutely destroy them. Which, I get it, Persia is SUPPOSED to destroy Babylon, but still. The ability to do collateral damage is actually pretty cool, has a real possibility to help a lot in breaking big stacks, which would serve as a big help for Babylon. If you could also give it a decent retreat chance it might do its job much better.
Just my $.02 on Babylon. Most of all I think you shouldn't make any small changes until you've considered making some bigger ones.
Thanks for the Babylonia input. They definitely need some redesign (oh how I hate those collateral effects).
I agree with you on where the Chinese techs should be located, moving Confucianism away from Mathematics would even allow to encourage Greece to more historically go for it so that they have catapults for expansion. The problem with tying it to Literature (which would make most sense in my opinion) is that it would have weird effects on people completing the Greek UHV. But maybe we can go for a full swap around and replace Literature with Mathematics in the Greek UHV? The Greeks were great in geometry after all. Of course one would have to see how the Chinese perform then.
But I digress. I think the tech goal should stay, because the techs involved there are pretty historical (and alphabet isn't, because the Babylonians used cuneiform, while the alphabet was invented in Phoenicia). I think I'll find a solution about that.
The cultural goal is okay in my opinion. The city size goal was always hard but is now almost impossible due to super Varanasi. I like your building suggestion, but I'd also like something that encourages them to build the Hanging Gardens (but without the direct task of doing so). What set Babylon apart from contemporary population centers was that was a true metropolis that had organized infrastructure and public buildings etc., so maybe we can represent that by having them make Babylon the most happy and healthy city in the world? This would encourage to build temples, aqueducts and the HGs. Varanasi is out at the same time due to its health penalties.
For the UB, I agree it's useless. Either we turn the Ziggurat into a Pagan Temple replacement (after all, it's basically the temple of Mesopotamia's ancient religion) with some extra happiness or a priest and artist slot or we return the Edubba (which was their UB during Warlords and iirc a Library replacement). Problem is that China already has one now.
I don't see a problem with the Asharittu Bowman actually. They need to be weak against Immortals, but are still pretty decent against any other threat.
I agree with you on where the Chinese techs should be located, moving Confucianism away from Mathematics would even allow to encourage Greece to more historically go for it so that they have catapults for expansion. The problem with tying it to Literature (which would make most sense in my opinion) is that it would have weird effects on people completing the Greek UHV. But maybe we can go for a full swap around and replace Literature with Mathematics in the Greek UHV? The Greeks were great in geometry after all. Of course one would have to see how the Chinese perform then.
But I digress. I think the tech goal should stay, because the techs involved there are pretty historical (and alphabet isn't, because the Babylonians used cuneiform, while the alphabet was invented in Phoenicia). I think I'll find a solution about that.
The cultural goal is okay in my opinion. The city size goal was always hard but is now almost impossible due to super Varanasi. I like your building suggestion, but I'd also like something that encourages them to build the Hanging Gardens (but without the direct task of doing so). What set Babylon apart from contemporary population centers was that was a true metropolis that had organized infrastructure and public buildings etc., so maybe we can represent that by having them make Babylon the most happy and healthy city in the world? This would encourage to build temples, aqueducts and the HGs. Varanasi is out at the same time due to its health penalties.
For the UB, I agree it's useless. Either we turn the Ziggurat into a Pagan Temple replacement (after all, it's basically the temple of Mesopotamia's ancient religion) with some extra happiness or a priest and artist slot or we return the Edubba (which was their UB during Warlords and iirc a Library replacement). Problem is that China already has one now.
I don't see a problem with the Asharittu Bowman actually. They need to be weak against Immortals, but are still pretty decent against any other threat.
How about attaching Confucianism to Code of Law, that seems very fitting.
Ziggurat as a pagan temple seems fitting
AOS9001
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That could work, but Literature is pretty high up in the tech tree from a 3000 BC start. However, I think it certainly is possible, you'd just have to beeline. With no more worrying about the Roman spawn, you'd also have more time to grab Ironworking and pottery and other vital techs along the way.
Caesar Augustus
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I absolutely agree that Literature makes just tons of sense for Confucianism. At least it makes a lot more sense than Mathematics. Switching the two for the Greek UHV is pretty reasonable as well.
I would think putting it higher in the tech tree is a good thing, since it's usually founded many hundreds of years earlier than it should be.
Plenty of civs have ahistorical goals. Heck, the Maya have to live into the 1700's for theirs. Plus, cuneiform was certainly much closer to an alphabet than, say, Chinese writing. It's true that the Phoenicians historically developed the first alphabet, I'll grant you, but it's not like they often manage that feat in-game. I'd honestly be tempted to give it to them at spawn, but now we're WAY WAY off the original topic of Babylonian UHV's. In the end I don't think there's any real problem with the tech goal as long as the game ends up balanced such that it's achievable.
I'm not sure how I feel about this idea. I agree that it's unique, historically plausible, and speaks well to the "flavor" of the civ. I do worry about implementation, though. I mean, this could easily encourage purposely reducing population to avoid unhealth/unhappiness, and I'd bet that some random lvl 1 city in China would probably end up beating it if Babylon has grown very much. Maybe it should just be the happiest and healthiest capital city? I dunno, bears some thinking through.
Egypt and Ethiopia both already have a Pagan Temple replacement. As things stand China isn't the only one with a Library replacement as Arabia has the Madrassah. There are also multiple civs with Forges, Markets, Theatres, Amphitheatres, and Aqueducts. Heck, Babylon isn't even alone in having a unique Courthouse. So I wouldn't lose any sleep if Babylon and China both have improved versions of the same building. That said, I still think an improved Palace would be really cool.
No, I agree, they're good against anyone but Persia, and Persia should be able to defeat Babylon, so in a way they work as a UU. My only problem with it is that, as a player, my only real concern is Persia; if a unit won't work against them, I'm not building it. I mean, what "other threat" am I using them against? Greece? Egypt? Phoenicia? None are all that likely to attack. Barbs? Warriors do the job fine and barbs rarely stack above 2 or MAYBE 3 so doing collateral damage is kinda useless against them. So I end up skipping Asharittus entirely, which is a shame because I should WANT to use my UU for something. I don't think I'm asking for a huge increase in power to have them be able to retreat. And I doubt the AI would get that much of a buff from a retreat chance if you're worried that Babylon is going to survive Persia because of this change. But meh, any changes to the Asharittu are way less important than changing the UHVs and the UB so if you don't think it's a good idea it's no big deal to me.
While we're on the subject, how do we feel about the current Babylonian UP? I think avoiding anarchy is great and all, but in the course of a Babylon game how many times does one really change civics? I count Pantheon, Serfdom, and Hereditary Rule. Maybe Aristocracy if you get Code of Laws particularly early? At most 2 more after you're done building wonders and want to become a Zoroastrian Patriarchate? Still, 6 turns of no anarchy isn't really all that compelling as a UP especially since 3 of them come after you've pretty much already wrapped up your UHV and the first 2 come so early you're not really producing much anyway. It's not that I don't like the idea, but maybe there should be something else in addition to no anarchy.
That's right, but with Code of Laws we'll end up in the "winning the Babylonian UHV ends up with founding the wrong religion" situation again.
I'm not sure currently how the tech tree works in the culture branch. Isn't it Aesthetics + Writing -> Literature? Or do you need Drama first?
True, but most of these ahistorical goals are clear "what ifs". I don't like mixing a goal that's clearly there for their historical achievements with a random tech they didn't discover. I think the only problem for that goal is that China always beelines Writing, which is easy to change.
Oh, I meant the raw +happy and +health score, before unhappiness and unhealthiness are deducted (else you'd be motivated to counterintuitively reduce Babylon's population). You'd have to compete India's and China's superior resources mainly.
The problem with a palace UB is that it's like a hidden bonus because it's a building you'll likely never build yourself. I'd have to look up what the Edubba did in Warlords, but that's definitely a possibility too. Let's hear some discussion first.
I don't think you can't give every aspect of a civ a role in achieving the UHV (Egypt's War Chariots don't have one either, and they're usually great too), especially on such a tight timeframe.
Yes, the UP will be changed as well. Main ideas currently:
- increased wonder production
- a little crazy, but: don't allow them to build settlers and increase Babylon's city radius to three (won't be easy to implement but I guess I can steal most of it from FFH)
Ekolite
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I kind of like the idea of increasing Babylon's radius to three, but I really really don't like the idea of preventing their building settlers. Babylon should probably be able to work as a OCC for the UHV, but players don't always play for the UHV and sometimes its fun to build mega-Babylon empires and try to fend off the successive waves of invasion and/or collapse. Blocking settlers would be a massive and arbritrary restriction that really shouldn't be done.
However, if you made their UP that their capital city has a radius of three, and tied into their UHV a need to build lots of buildings and wonders, while simulatenously building an army to defend against the Persians, then who will have time to build settlers anyway? And who'd want to if building new cities would only be eating important tiles that were previously being used by your capital?
If you went ahead with this their UB should be changed to something that provides happiness and/or health. If you wanted to get really creative, you could re-make the Hanging Gardens as a UB wonder for Babylon; increasing its cost (to further tie down production and discourage settlers), and changing its effect to providing a decent bit of happiness and health (which is hard to come by in the early game). The UB wouldn't replace anything in the traditional way, but I don't see why that would be a problem. Along with the tile radius, having a wonder for a UB would make Babylon an extremely unique civ to play. Considering it could only be built in one city, it should be relatively powerful (and would need to be to compete with the luxury resources of China and India). It also again indirectly encourages the player to stick to just one city.
Monarchy I assume would become a key tech in this situation for the civic, which I think should be avoided as a main strategy if possible. Babylon didn't become a great city through military oppression, it did so with architecture and sanitation. Monarchy doesn't arrive until Persia unless you beline it yourself (and Persia isn't going to trade it to you), so giving them other research priorities could prevent this. Perhaps by moving the Hanging Gardens somewhere further up the tech tree. However, having a monarchy beline as an alternate strategy would be very interesting. On the one hand it would be easier to obtain happiness, and using troops to provide happiness synergises well with protecting yourself from the Persians. On the other hand, the tech route might cause you to miss out on the Hanging Gardens and/or useful buildings like aqueducts.
What do you think?
However, if you made their UP that their capital city has a radius of three, and tied into their UHV a need to build lots of buildings and wonders, while simulatenously building an army to defend against the Persians, then who will have time to build settlers anyway? And who'd want to if building new cities would only be eating important tiles that were previously being used by your capital?
If you went ahead with this their UB should be changed to something that provides happiness and/or health. If you wanted to get really creative, you could re-make the Hanging Gardens as a UB wonder for Babylon; increasing its cost (to further tie down production and discourage settlers), and changing its effect to providing a decent bit of happiness and health (which is hard to come by in the early game). The UB wouldn't replace anything in the traditional way, but I don't see why that would be a problem. Along with the tile radius, having a wonder for a UB would make Babylon an extremely unique civ to play. Considering it could only be built in one city, it should be relatively powerful (and would need to be to compete with the luxury resources of China and India). It also again indirectly encourages the player to stick to just one city.
Monarchy I assume would become a key tech in this situation for the civic, which I think should be avoided as a main strategy if possible. Babylon didn't become a great city through military oppression, it did so with architecture and sanitation. Monarchy doesn't arrive until Persia unless you beline it yourself (and Persia isn't going to trade it to you), so giving them other research priorities could prevent this. Perhaps by moving the Hanging Gardens somewhere further up the tech tree. However, having a monarchy beline as an alternate strategy would be very interesting. On the one hand it would be easier to obtain happiness, and using troops to provide happiness synergises well with protecting yourself from the Persians. On the other hand, the tech route might cause you to miss out on the Hanging Gardens and/or useful buildings like aqueducts.
What do you think?
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