Determinates of Sexuality

[Dreadnought]

A couple things to note:

First, by saying homosexuality is a choice, one does not mean something as simple as a sit-down at the local bar and determining that you are going to become a homosexual. Rather, it means that, throughout life, certain environmental, hormonal, and other such conditions line up that change your personal preference. Is it always a conscious choice? Probably not. But could (potentially) research be done to see what those conditions are? Probably.

Secondly, animals in the wild are not homosexual. They display homosexual behavior. There's a pretty big difference.

 

[Arakhor]

Secondly, animals in the wild are not homosexual. They display homosexual behavior. There's a pretty big difference.

Well, first it's fairly difficult to interview those animals about their long-time sexual lifestyles and second, it thoroughly debunks the idea that homosexuality is "unnatural", except in the mind of the one who's claiming that.

 

[Dreadnought]

Well, first it's fairly difficult to interview those animals about their long-time sexual lifestyles and second, it thoroughly debunks the idea that homosexuality is "unnatural", except in the mind of the one who's claiming that.

First, modern tracking systems, along with teams of biologists, make following around specific animals not too difficult. Besides, I'm not the one making assumptions.

Secondly, it shows that homosexual behavior is not "unnatural", not that homosexuality is.

 

[cardgame]

Secondly, it shows that homosexual behavior is not "unnatural", not that homosexuality is.

I don't think there's enough information to determine that and you're just making an assumption of convenience.

 

[MobBoss]

I don't think there's enough information to determine that and you're just making an assumption of convenience.

I think far more people make the assumption in attributing animal behavior to human behavior (and labels), when the reasons behind said behavior have nothing in common.

Ever see the documentary 'Grizzly Man'?

Its about a crazy guy that used to go hang out with the Grizzlies in Alaska. He used to comment how he thought the bears would play, etc. etc. Turns out the behavior he saw wasnt the bears playing - it was the bears going hungry. He made the fatal error of attributing the bears behavior with how humans would. He got eaten.

So yeah, its like that.

 

[berkut]

Do any one here have a link to an article pointing to an biological origin of homossexuality?

I think that homossexuality is a behavior that some chose to take for a period of their lifes, or their whole lifes, much like smokers do. Think: people who smokes a cople of cigarettes a year are smoker? and those that smokes just becasuse of peer presure? Can an ex smoker get rid of the desire to smoke? If not, does he realy is an ex smoker? Sometimes labels make more confusion than help.

 

[Dreadnought]

I don't think there's enough information to determine that and you're just making an assumption of convenience.

I hate to be blunt, but I am the one refuting the assumption.

 

[innonimatu]

Secondly, it shows that homosexual behavior is not "unnatural", not that homosexuality is.

Because mankind is not part of nature, right?

 

[timtofly]

It is something that I would not naturally choose to do, at least it is now legal...

 

[LucyDuke]

Do any one here have a link to an article pointing to an biological origin of homossexuality?

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/born-gay

 

[Dreadnought]

Because mankind is not part of nature, right?

This same argument seems to pop up every few weeks; I'd advise you to see this thread, rather than have me reiterate the same point over and over again.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Couple of thoughts. Isnt it possible that you may have made such a choice but simply have forgotten you did so or maybe just took it for granted? Or maybe it was a choice you made, but you didnt really give it much thought in doing it....i.e. for example, you have two ways to drive home, equally distant, you have to choose one, and with no other factors pertaining do you really think about going either way? No. So why do you choose one over the other?

Or perhaps that your interest in girls much earlier than sex didnt have anything to do with biology at all, but with some other factor?

Just saying simply because one doesnt remember making such a choice, doesnt mean that one wasnt actually made, conciously or unconciously.


But isnt that also an argument for choice in this issue?

Is there any real scientific evidence that shows people choose their sexual identity? I would not say that anecdotal stories of individuals who have constitutes evidence. I am thinking of actual studies.

I dont ascribe to that, but if one defines the argument as being nature vs nurture, I guess I am arguing as humans, we have developed to the point where our nuture can overcome our nature.

Now MB, since you are a father, I cannot believe that after raising daughters, you think that "nurture" plays any more than a small role in who we are. Sure we can make some decisions about how we act or what we want, but fundamentally, who we are is written in stone genes before we are born.

 

[Gustave5436]

"I am not gay, therefore, being gay is unnatural."

Quite simple really, nothing more than egocentrism propped up by authoritarianism. The view that you're the center of the universe, and that you are somehow ordained with the authority to force others to obey this truth. It is no different from old arguments, like "I am not black, therefore, being black is unnatural," or "I am not female, therefore, being female is unnatural." Merely a nonsense excuse for one party to subjugate the other.

 

[Narz]

Having sexual relations with a member of the same sex doesn't necessarily mean the person is homosexual, so sex (the act) isn't necessarily related to sexuality.

You can call them bisexual, but that one experimental bedromp in college doesn't make the average bear bisexual.

I never understood these arguments? What's the shame in admitting you're bisexual?

If you "experiment" with the same sex and are aroused by it you're bi-sexual. A true heterosexual person doesn't need to "experiment". This type of argument just feeds into the "orientation is a choice" crap. I didn't need to fool around with girls to "decide" I was straight. I was straight before I even saw a naked woman, before I even understood how sex worked. I didn't feel the need to "try" men just to make sure I wasn't missing out. There is no desire for men, that's what being heterosexual is.

Why even use language (hetero, bi, homo) if the words don't mean anything & people can claim they mean whatever they want them to mean?

 

[LucyDuke]

There's no shame in admitting or being bisexual. There's no reason to say you are if you aren't.

The words have meaning. We've been through the meanings of the words a billion times.

A dude that's not attracted to dudes but exchanged favors with another dude for the hell of it isn't necessarily sexually attracted to dudes. You can call him bisexual if you want, but I think it's silly to group him with dudes that are attracted to dudes enough to be worth talking about.

 

[Narz]

A dude that's not attracted to dudes but exchanged favors with another dude for the hell of it isn't necessarily sexually attracted to dudes. You can call him bisexual if you want, but I think it's silly to group him with dudes that are attracted to dudes enough to be worth talking about.

You don't "exchange favors" with another dude unless you're either into it or being paid (or doing it for some other reason besides enjoyment, whether coercion or whatever else). Personally, I'd sooner stick my dick in a litter box than some dude's behind, if you even have the idea it might be fun you're bi. What's the big deal? There are ranges of bisexuality. The only reason I can see to say "well, I asked this dude to suck me off but I'm not bi!" is shame.

If you're being paid but hate every minute of it you're not bi, if you're doing it to show off (straight girls kissing at a party for attention) you're not bi. But, if you're into it... well, that's the definition of attraction, being into something.

 

[LucyDuke]

I can see two answers to the apparent contradiction.

The first is sexual identity. I put off replying for this long because I'm not terribly well-versed on the subject. My roommate is, though, so I asked her. Here's my attempt at transcription (couldn't quite keep up) of the relevant part of the conversation:


Her:

I would argue that your sexual identity doesn't have as much to do with what you've done as it does with how you feel about what you've done.

I'm a lesbian - that's how I identify because I've had sexual experiences with men and I didn't like them. I didn't like them and it wasn't pleasurable at all.

Me:

What drove you to it?

Her:

Drove me to... sexual experiences with men?

Me:

Yeah. Just... why?

Her:

Being attracted to them, I guess. But over time I became less attracted to them. Dudes can still look attractive to me, but I'm not going to do anything with them.

By the same token, if you're a straight girl in college, and you think some girl is hot and you try something with her, if you like it and go on to continue doing it, yeah, you're bisexual. If it wasn't really that great, and you don't do it again, you're just straight.

Me:

Can you see conceive of yourself screwing a dude? Like... everything's perfect, whatever it is you're looking for, whatever you imagine.

Her:

Hm. Yeah. But it's not gonna actually happen.


My angle is the usefulness of words. A bisexual person feels sexual attraction to people of the same and different sex. Not feels sexual attraction to the same sex and had a sexual relationship with a person of different sex for a year twenty years ago. If every "straight" girl that ever felt sexual attraction to another girl at any time in her life is secretly bisexual, the word bisexual loses its usefulness. Why use the word bisexual to describe someone that's only ever going to want to screw one sex for the rest of their life? What should we call the people that experience significant sexual attraction to both sexes? Isn't it more useful to call me bisexual and my roommate homosexual than to call us both bisexual?

Here's the tired old analogy again. Suppose you're Japanese. Your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, keep going back, they're all Japanese as far back as there were humans on those islands. Except one greatⁿ-grandmother that was... Finnish. What is the value in describing yourself as Finno-Japanese instead of Japanese?

I don't care to keep arguing this, and probably shouldn't've bothered with this post. I hope it's helped your perspective some, though.

 

[Narz]

I don't care to keep arguing this, and probably shouldn't've bothered with this post. I hope it's helped your perspective some, though.

Actually it has thanks!

It seems my problem with understanding (up until this point) is that, for me personally, my sexuality (or sexual orientation to put it better) hasn't changed much since I first started having sexual thoughts more than two decades ago. But for some evidently it does change.

Maybe most people are strongly hetero (and some strongly homo) but there are some more in between for whom it takes longer to recognize their natural tendencies. They might be more towards the center (bi) at some point in their lives but over time lose that "bi-ness" to the point where they no longer feel the word applies to them.

Anyway, thats my understanding of what you said. I really do appreciate the clarity (believe it or not I'm not belligerent for the sake of belligerence, even on the Internet ).

 

[BvBPL]

That takes sexuality away from being an attractive sexual forces to being one that describes people’s lifestyles. Pretty much by definition, that makes it socially influenced and non-biological.

 

[kiwitt]

That takes sexuality away from being an attractive sexual forces to being one that describes people’s lifestyles. Pretty much by definition, that makes it socially influenced and non-biological.

Agree ... like I was saying - "a choice" - for a particular lifestyle.