Estonia the worst human rights abuser of EU

[innonimatu]

It sucks for the Russians born in Estonia, but the Russians weren't asked to just come busting in their country. Nowhere in history did the Russians have to learn Estonian until recently, while everyone in the Soviet Union was obliged to learn Russian. Perhaps they should force both communities to learn each other's language, but make it clear that Estonian is the historical language of the country.

What historical language? The bloody language was a 19th century creation! The whole "national languages" episode of 19th century european nationalism, with "epics" being allegedly "discovered" from "folklore", was pathetic. And to make things worse that epic and language creation work throughout central and eastern Europe was mostly made by... germans! Oh, the irony!

The country was a 20th century byproduct of great power conflicts. Then they were forced into a federation until 1991. Then they demanded and got independence - they also got whatever population resided there.

A Russian friend of mine who lived half of his life in the Soviet Union once told me that people from the Baltic countries (but I don't know if he also means the Finno-Ugric population along with it) were very bad at Russian. I guess they saw the Russian presence as some colonialism of some kind and that made the Russian language far from popular. For the rest I don't know much about this country.

Does that meran that the colonialist hadn't been very determined to impose russian on the estonians?

 

[Yeekim]

What historical language? The bloody language was a 19th century creation! The whole "national languages" episode of 19th century european nationalism, with "epics" being allegedly "discovered" from "folklore", was pathetic. And to make things worse that epic and language creation work throughout central and eastern Europe was mostly made by... germans! Oh, the irony!?

Yes, you have the truth of it: we all just growled and grunted like animals here, until 19th century when Germans invented a language for us.

 

[innonimatu]

Yes, you have the truth of it: we all just growled and grunted like animals here, until 19th century when Germans invented a language for us.

No, you had a variety of regional dialects which was far from being a formalized, "national language" in the modern sense. The creation of that language and its imposition on the peasants was always the first task of the nationalist. And it was indeed ironic that the germans were instrumental in spreading nationalism throughout central Europe, considering how that eventually gave rise to new countries which destroyed wiped out the german-speaking communities outside modern Germany/Austria/Switzerland.

 

[Northen Wolf]

A Russian friend of mine who lived half of his life in the Soviet Union once told me that people from the Baltic countries (but I don't know if he also means the Finno-Ugric population along with it) were very bad at Russian. I guess they saw the Russian presence as some colonialism of some kind and that made the Russian language far from popular. For the rest I don't know much about this country.

Well, Estonian economy and education levels were much higher before occupation - many Soviet era soldiers saw WC for first time in their life. People who had earned something (farm, a car, house, business) were first stripped off their property and then many of them sent to Siberia (I think English word for this is deportation).

Estonia and Latvia received large-scale immigration of industrial workers for other parts of the Soviet Union and changed the demographics changes dramatically. Lithuania also received immigration but in a smaller scale. Ethnic Estonians constituted 88 percent before the war, but in 1970 the figure dropped to 60 percent

Language what was not commonly spoken become national language and even kids were thought in schools using Russian language. Everything that reminded of old Estonian nation was banned and everything that had something to do with Russians was glorified.

Church was banned and church-rites had to be done in secret.
------------------

No, you had a variety of regional dialects which was far from being a formalized, "national language" in the modern sense. The creation of that language and its imposition on the peasants was always the first task of the nationalist. ..blah blah blah ....

The two dialects were united based on northern Estonian by Anton Thor Helle.

Anton Thor Helle (1683–1748)

Source: Wikipedia.

 

[Yeekim]

No, you had a variety of regional dialects which was far from being a formalized, "national language" in the modern sense.

1) How many countries at the time had "formalized, national language in the modern sense" at the time? (whatever that is supposed to mean.)
2) This is relevant to the discussion how?

 

[innonimatu]

1) How many countries at the time had "formalized, national language in the modern sense" at the time? (whatever that is supposed to mean.)
2) This is relevant to the discussion how?

I was just answering that comment bout the historical language. No need to get so touchy.

 

[red_elk]

Does that meran that the colonialist hadn't been very determined to impose russian on the estonians?

The "colonists" built schools where children learned Estonian language (there was special term for that in Soviet schools outside of RSFSR). That was a part of evil plan to destroy everything related to Estonian culture.

 

[Yeekim]

I was just answering that comment bout the historical language. No need to get so touchy.

Well, I was just pointing out that your answer was kind of an irrelevant hyperbole...

 

[spryllino]

The Estonian language, which was formed not that long ago from a load of Estonian dialects, like most languages, is quite clearly more Estonian than the Russian language, which was standardised from a load of Russian dialects. Those Estonian dialects have their history too. Shakespeare wrote in but one dialect of English; does that mean we discount it as great English literature?

 

[Ataxerxes]

The Estonians wanting citizens to be able to speak Estonian seems reasonable IMO. Trying to force a country to have two languages to please a minority is a little unreasonable. If they're offering free courses to learn the language, then it's perfectly reasonable to require Estonian. My wife's family were immigrants to the U.S. and they learned English.

Estonian not being considered a language until the 19th Century, which I doubt, isn't a reason. Most of the Russian immigrants who don't speak Estonian haven't been there since before the 19th Century.

Also, the Estonian position on their language is not as bad as the Russian position in the 19th century of trying to eliminate the baltic languages altogether.

 

[innonimatu]

Also, the Estonian position on their language is not as bad as the Russian position in the 19th century of trying to eliminate the baltic languages altogether.

You really should have researched before posting that. Back in the 19th century the Russian Empire wasn't aggressively promoting russian (nor the USSR for much of the 20th century either). In Finland they actually promoted finnish against swedish - the finns would most likely be speaking swedish today if they hadn't. And in the baltics this happened even earlier, for the russians also disputed influence with local german lords. They might have ended up speaking german. The idea of creating a single national (russian) identity seems to have reached the Russian Empire only very late in the 19th century, which is not surprising given its multiethnic character (and, unsurprisingly, it would fail).

The poles, those had reason to complain.

The two dialects were united based on northern Estonian by Anton Thor Helle.
Quote:
Anton Thor Helle (1683–1748)

Source: Wikipedia.

Ah, wikipedia, that's a reliable source! I'm off to read the amazing estonian literature of the 17th-18th century. Oh, wait - I can't find any!

 

[innonimatu]

damn, double post again!

 

[Northen Wolf]

Ah, wikipedia, that's a reliable source! I'm off to read the amazing estonian literature of the 17th-18th century. Oh, wait - I can't find any!

You are not searching hard enough ... or are you searching your local book store?

e earliest extant samples of connected Estonian are the so-called Kullamaa prayers dating from 1524 and 1528.[5] In 1525 the first book published in the Estonian language was printed. The book was a Lutheran manuscript, which never reached the reader and was destroyed immediately after publication. The first extant Estonian book is a bilingual German-Estonian translation of the Lutheran catechism by S.Wanradt and J. Koell dating to 1535, during the Protestant Reformation period. For the use of priests an Estonian grammar was printed in German in 1637.[6] The New Testament was translated into southern Estonian in 1686 (northern Estonian, 1715). The two dialects were united based on northern Estonian by Anton Thor Helle. Writings in Estonian became more significant in the 19th century during the Estophile Enlightenment Period (1750–1840).

Source: Same unreliable place as before

There are also newspapers from that time. For few examples: "Lühhike öppetus, mis sees monned head rohhud teäda antakse..." (1766), "Tartoma Rahva Näddali-Leht" (1806), "Perno Postimees" (1857).

True Estonian literature was born until the end of 18 century, but we were speaking of Estonians having common language not countless numbers of dialects (?or growling and barking? like you seemed to believe before (Sorry if I am mistaken)). Of course we can continue walking circles around the term of "modern language". But that would go off-topic and we don't want that.

 

[Yeekim]

Back in the 19th century the Russian Empire wasn't aggressively promoting russian (nor the USSR for much of the 20th century either). In Finland they actually promoted finnish against swedish - the finns would most likely be speaking swedish today if they hadn't. And in the baltics this happened even earlier, for the russians also disputed influence with local german lords. They might have ended up speaking german. The idea of creating a single national (russian) identity seems to have reached the Russian Empire only very late in the 19th century, which is not surprising given its multiethnic character (and, unsurprisingly, it would fail).

You might want to read up about policies of Alexander III, if you think Russian Empire wasn't aggressively promoting Russian. EDIT: Although I don't think this could be characterized as "trying to eliminate the language altogether". This would probably require full-blown genocide?

I'm off to read the amazing estonian literature of the 17th-18th century. Oh, wait - I can't find any!

You are welcome.
http://www.utlib.ee/ekollekt/eeva/index.php?lang=en&do=index

 

[red_elk]

You are welcome.
http://www.utlib.ee/ekollekt/eeva/index.php?lang=en&do=index

For XIII-XVI century - 0 books on Estonian language
For XVII century - 12 books, where
10 - Books of sermons, church registers, psalters and other spiritual books.
2 - grammar books
For XVIII century - 1 book published in 1790.

Just FYI.

 

[spryllino]

This is a deplorable method of argument, red elk and immonimatu. The respective merits and ages of the two languages are utterly irrelevant to the matter of whether Estonia's citizenship laws are unreasonable. Even if all the Estonians spoke Esperanto, the issues would be precisely the same; the fact that Esperanto actually was invented would still be no reason at all for the Estonians to respect Russian as if it were somehow superior.

Besides, two centuries of Estonian is plenty of history. If there were an enormous number of Pontic Greeks left in the Crimea, would you expect the Ukraine to accept Greek as a second language on the basis that Greek is older than Ukrainian? No, of course not.

Please use a less blatantly absurd argument.

 

[red_elk]

This is a deplorable method of argument, red elk and immonimatu. The respective merits and ages of the two languages are utterly irrelevant to the matter of whether Estonia's citizenship laws are unreasonable. Even if all the Estonians spoke Esperanto, the issues would be precisely the same; the fact that Esperanto actually was invented would still be no reason at all for the Estonians to respect Russian as if it were somehow superior.

I would suggest you to read why this discussion about Estonian literature started. Also, please quote where anybody stated that Russian language is superior to Estonian.

Estonian citizenship laws are unreasonable not because there is something wrong with requirement to know state language to become citizen. The problem is that significant portion of people living there have "non-citizen" status, have less rights, in fact being people of second grade in their own country. That situation is quite unique for Europe - in neighbouring Finland 6% minority of Swedish-speaking people don't have such problems.

 

[Yeekim]

For XIII-XVI century - 0 books on Estonian language
For XVII century - 12 books, where
10 - Books of sermons, church registers, psalters and other spiritual books.
2 - grammar books
For XVIII century - 1 book published in 1790.

Just FYI.

I am glad that I was able to spark your interest.

Estonian citizenship laws are unreasonable not because there is something wrong with requirement to know state language to become citizen.

Again, I am glad that we are in total agreement here.

The problem is that significant portion of people living there have "non-citizen" status, have less rights, in fact being people of second grade in their own country. That situation is quite unique for Europe - in neighbouring Finland 6% minority of Swedish-speaking people don't have such problems.

Well, getting rid of their "non-citizen" status is totally in their own hands. Well over hundred thousand have managed... And yes, the situation is unique in Europe, but I don't think Estonia can be considered responsible for creating the situation. I might add that the problems were likely far smaller here as well, if the Russian-speaking minority was only 6%. That way they'd likely be able to communicate with natives without state-mandated coercion and wouldn't try working as pharmacists, taxi-drivers, shop clerks, etc without being able to understand larger part of their potential clientele, as was far too common not too long ago.

 

[NovaKart]

I was kind of impressed that you have female taxi drivers in estonia. There are very few in the USA.

 

[spryllino]

I would suggest you to read why this discussion about Estonian literature started. Also, please quote where anybody stated that Russian language is superior to Estonian.

I have read precisely that: innonimatu cast an aspersion on the fact that Estonian is the historical language of Estonia, in order to suggest that Russian ought to have equal privileges on account of Estonian's relative lack of history. That quite clearly suggests that Russian is somehow superior on account of its relatively rich cultural background.

Therefore, I say again that this is all irrelevant to the matter in hand, and you and innonimatu bringing it up is not suitable in the context of a discussion of whether Estonia's citizenship laws are reasonable or not.