Estonia the worst human rights abuser of EU

The most important thing here is; to love each other as equal, no matter what language ya speak. :love:

Grant em citizenship and be done with it. A free society accepts different people. Sure the history is what it is but we can't really change that, can we. Gotta look to the future and living in peace.
 
I agree with you here.
About "suffering" - pay attention to the message I was answering to, especially about Russians responsible for "colonization", etc.
As I myself pointed out, we really can't talk about colonization before 1940-s. After that, however, I believe that this would indeed be a proper term for a state of affairs, where Russian-speaking minority grew over 5 times in less than 40 years and stopped barely before ceasing to be a minority, due to collapse of USSR.
My general point is that problem of non-citizens exists and current Estonian laws about citizenship are unjust to Russian-speaking minority.
As you said yourself, it is not unreasonable to expect that a would-be citizen should be able to speak a local language. Becoming an Estonian citizen does not require anything that anyone who desires to become one shouldn't strive to achieve on his own accord anyway. As warpus pointed out, it is not unreasonable to believe that many of those who remain stateless simply do not see any benefit in obtaining citizenship - and for what's it worth I know couple of such people. For anyone who has business connections in Russia, ability to travel there without visa may be quite an asset.
EDIT:
Don't know. From my experience, learning second language can be extremely difficult for many people who are more than 60 years old.
And what would these people do with their free citizenship then? Start a career as notary? Dive into political scene (without understanding of local language?).It's not as if they'll be buried outside proper graveyard on the account of lacking a proper passport.
 
As I myself pointed out, we really can't talk about colonization before 1940-s. After that, however, I believe that this would indeed be a proper term for a state of affairs, where Russian-speaking minority grew over 5 times in less than 40 years and stopped barely before ceasing to be a minority, due to collapse of USSR.
We can argue about colonization for a long time, but anyway you can't blame Russians in modern Estonia for that. As for lack of Estonian speakers, the major reasons for that were WW2 casualties and Estonian demographic problems - unless you want to suggest that there was genocide of Estonians in USSR.

As you said yourself, it is not unreasonable to expect that a would-be citizen should be able to speak a local language.
For new immigrants it's a necessary requirement IMO.

Becoming an Estonian citizen does not require anything that anyone who desires to become one shouldn't strive to achieve on his own accord anyway. As warpus pointed out, it is not unreasonable to believe that many of those who remain stateless simply do not see any benefit in obtaining citizenship - and for what's it worth I know couple of such people. For anyone who has business connections in Russia, ability to travel there without visa may be quite an asset.
For some people yes, may be.
On the other hand, I don't see a reason why those people were refused to get citizenship in 1990. Except probably that ethnic majority wanted to get rid of them or prevent them from electing "wrong" candidates in parliament.

And what would these people do with their free citizenship then? Start a career as notary? Dive into political scene (without understanding of local language?).It's not as if they'll be buried outside proper graveyard on the account of lacking a proper passport.
"To see Paris and die".
Or to vote for pro-Russian party in parliament elections.
 
Don't know. From my experience, learning second language can be extremely difficult for many people who are more than 60 years old.

But they didn't born as over 60, right? They were younger but they didn't want to because learning the language was useless for them. Here are a lot of Russian people who say that with understanding only Russian language is enough to manage here. They go to shop and if salesman say "Tere" (It means "Hello") then he may only answer "što?" or "Tsevo?" so they do not understand even the basic words. Are they retards or just Big-Russian chauvinists who think that understanding such a small language than Estonian doesn't fit for them.
 
But they didn't born as over 60, right? They were younger but they didn't want to because learning the language was useless for them.
Right, when they were young, in USSR it was not necessary.

Here are a lot of Russian people who say that with understanding only Russian language is enough to manage here. They go to shop and if salesman say "Tere" (It means "Hello") then he may only answer "što?" or "Tsevo?" so they do not understand even the basic words. Are they retards or just Big-Russian chauvinists who think that understanding such a small language than Estonian doesn't fit for them.
There are retards and chauvinists amongst Russians, just as there are similar Estonians. I don't think that giving examples of bad behavior is relevant here. In your example person might simply have problems with hearing. I doubt that all Russians behave like you described.
 
My general point is that problem of non-citizens exists and current Estonian laws about citizenship are unjust to Russian-speaking minority.

True but Current Russian laws are same UNJUST to Estonian minority who lives there. Come to think of it, most countries are being unjust towards Estonians! From now one EVERYONE MUST OFFER ESTONIANS CITIZENSHIP SO ESTONIANS WOULD NOT BE TREATED UNJUSTLY! Right? That's what you (seem to) want Estonia do with Russians tho...
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red_elk, What's the point you are trying to make? That Estonia should grant citizenship to Russian-citizens living here? That they should get right to vote, work in governmental and public sectors?

That's pound to be interesting in many cases -policemen, taxi drivers, hospital nurses, etc. Most of those professions require understanding of both languages - Estonian and Russian. That means that granting citizenship to Russians, won't help them as they do not meet language requirements. They did not meet requirements before and they won't meet requirements after giving them citizenship, so what use would that be? Of course we could have half of government made up of only Russian speaking people...

I assuming that you would probably be very happy to talk with tech policeman who does not understand what you are saying and keeps talking to you in Polish language?
 
Don't know. From my experience, learning second language can be extremely difficult for many people who are more than 60 years old.

I agree, and for those people the situation really stinks. But I am going to guess that the majority of those who don't have their citizenship are not over 60 years old.
 
True but Current Russian laws are same UNJUST to Estonian minority who lives there. Come to think of it, most countries are being unjust towards Estonians! From now one EVERYONE MUST OFFER ESTONIANS CITIZENSHIP SO ESTONIANS WOULD NOT BE TREATED UNJUSTLY! Right? That's what you (seem to) want Estonia do with Russians tho...
If Russia had 30% of people who can understand only Estonian, I think it would be unjust not to give them citizenship automatically. Am I crazy? Did any other country, except Estonia and Latvia, force 1/3 of its population to learn second language and pass exam to become citizen of country where they already lived for years?

Also if majority of people in Russia could speak Estonian, it would be perfectly reasonable to make Estonian official or state language. No?

In regards to citizenship, Russians in modern Estonia have less rights, than Estonians had in USSR.

red_elk, What's the point you are trying to make? That Estonia should grant citizenship to Russian-citizens living here? That they should get right to vote, work in governmental and public sectors?
Not to Russians. To all people who lived there in 1990.

That's pound to be interesting in many cases -policemen, taxi drivers, hospital nurses, etc. Most of those professions require understanding of both languages - Estonian and Russian. That means that granting citizenship to Russians, won't help them as they do not meet language requirements. They did not meet requirements before and they won't meet requirements after giving them citizenship, so what use would that be? Of course we could have half of government made up of only Russian speaking people...
That's not an argument. Basically, you are saying that they don't need citizenship anyway. Ask them what they need - at least they must have right to vote, if they live in democratic country.
 
If Russia had 30% of people who can understand only Estonian, I think it would be unjust not to give them citizenship automatically. Am I crazy? Did any other country, except Estonia and Latvia, force 1/3 of its population to learn second language and pass exam to become citizen of country where they already lived for years?

30% is the number of "ethnic" Russians in Estonia, but at the time being only 7.5% of Estonian population is "stateless" (meaning of Russian descent that did not get citizenship).
Most of the "ethnic Russians" in Estonia got the Estonian citizenship, and others acquired it later on, often automatically (people completing schools in Estonia do not need to give an exam to demonstrate knowledge of Estonian language and constitution).

So, quoting 30% is misleading to the facts.

Estonia didn't grant automatic citizenship to a specific subset of "ethnic Russians" because according to Russian law they could be granted, upon mere request, of Russian citizenship.
Estonia wanted to avoid or at least minimise the number of people with dual citizenship.

Part of that 7.5% did not want to get Estonian citizenship to don't lose the Russian one.

For personal experience I know that Russian Federation does not allow double citizenship but apply a "don't ask don't tell" policy: as long as you don't tell them, they don't care if you got a second passport. :)
Even knowing it would entice a risk for those who wanted to freely travel to Russia without having to bother with their visa process.
For Estonia it's a huge loophole for double citizenship.

Another part of that 7.5% didn't take the exam because it's difficoult to learn a new language, especially when age advance.
 
30% is the number of "ethnic" Russians in Estonia, but at the time being only 7.5% of Estonian population is "stateless" (meaning of Russian descent that did not get citizenship).
Most of the "ethnic Russians" in Estonia got the Estonian citizenship, and others acquired it later on, often automatically (people completing schools in Estonia do not need to give an exam to demonstrate knowledge of Estonian language and constitution).

So, quoting 30% is misleading to the facts.
Not misleading at all. 30% was approximate number of non-citizens when Estonia got independence and these people were refused to get citizenship automatically.
 
In regards to citizenship, Russians in modern Estonia have less rights, than Estonians had in USSR.

Oooo, we should give force them right to vote for one party, take away their property and send some of them to Siberia ... well maybe Siberia is too full already ... I'm thinking of Greenland? And we may torture them if they say something against Estonia. I'm not mentioning right to freedom of religion (what they will not then have). Are we are talking about same rights - as I can't recall any other rights from USSR.

Did any other country, except Estonia and Latvia, force 1/3 of its population to learn second language and pass exam to become citizen of country where they already lived for years?
You know, they are called illegal immigrants elsewhere and if found they are sent back - that's more civilized?

That's not an argument. Basically, you are saying that they don't need citizenship anyway. Ask them what they need - at least they must have right to vote, if they live in democratic country.
That's an argument - they do not need citizenship as without understanding even Basics of Estonian, work market stays same for them. And right to vote? They have right to vote - in their home country (what according to citizenship is Russia). If they don't qualify to vote there, why should they qualify to vote here?

Not misleading at all. 30% was approximate number of non-citizens when Estonia got independence and these people were refused to get citizenship automatically.

You do know many of them left and rest got themselves Estonian citizenship?

//OOC I don't even get why you keep refer "ethnic" estonians... are those who gained citizenship "false-estonians" to you?

Now you can claim that Wikipedia lies again :)
 
Not misleading at all. 30% was approximate number of non-citizens when Estonia got independence and these people were refused to get citizenship automatically.

As I mentioned before, juridically Estonia restored the lost independence so the fifteen years were here as illegal Soviet occupation. So people who moved here after 1940 were juridically as illegal immigrants. So we were very nice that they weren't deported back to Russia. They were people as all newcomers who have to earn citizenship not get it automatically. I think red_elk tries to tell here a different situation and doesn't understand the real thing at all.
 
Let's hope this horrendous undemocratic country will soon crumble and be pacified by peacekeeper forces.

Uh, why do you want Russia to crumble and how does Invading Russia go together with current topic?
 
I would have ethnically cleansed the Russians, personally.
 
Oooo, we should give force them right to vote for one party, take away their property and send some of them to Siberia ... well maybe Siberia is too full already ... I'm thinking of Greenland? And we may torture them if they say something against Estonia. I'm not mentioning right to freedom of religion (what they will not then have). Are we are talking about same rights - as I can't recall any other rights from USSR.
No, we are not talking about the same rights - since you can't give Russians even those citizenship rights which Estonians had in horrible USSR, where evil communists ate Estonian babies.

You know, they are called illegal immigrants elsewhere and if found they are sent back - that's more civilized?
Are you sure you understand what are illegal immigrants and what are Estonian non-citizens?

That's an argument - they do not need citizenship as without understanding even Basics of Estonian, work market stays same for them. And right to vote? They have right to vote - in their home country (what according to citizenship is Russia). If they don't qualify to vote there, why should they qualify to vote here?
They don't have home country as since they don't have Russian or any other citizenship. Too bad that you don't understand such simple things. And yes, they must have rights to vote in their country, Estonia. And they will obtain this right one way or another - if you think that Russian who learned Estonian language is not culturally and ethnically Russian anymore, you are mistaken.

As I mentioned before, juridically Estonia restored the lost independence so the fifteen years were here as illegal Soviet occupation. So people who moved here after 1940 were juridically as illegal immigrants.
This may be a position of Estonian state, but it doesn't mean everybody else must share it. More important, no matter what position you take, it doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want with that people. What if you decided to declare all of them occupants and put them to jail?

So we were very nice that they weren't deported back to Russia.
Why to Russia? They are not Russian citizens, moreover many of them have never been there.
 
Is it just me, or is there Russians in this thread complaining about other countries lack of human rights?
 
Agree, they are lynching Negroes and must shut up.

EDIT: Not attacking any poster here, just pointed out ad hominem
 
Is it just me, or is there Russians in this thread complaining about other countries lack of human rights?

Moderator Action: In general, I would prefer people not put the sins of the country onto the shoulders of the posters. The average CFC poster is not responsible for the actions of their country.

If someone is defending their country's actions, feel free to criticise their reasoning. Please refrain from making insulting generalisations about posters, though, based on their country of origin.

This moderator action is also in reference to red elk's post, above.
 
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