Fall From Heaven NES

[Immaculate]

Sorry- i had missed that. nothing in the update about it... what province are you referring to?

immac.

 

[arcticnightwolf]

Grigori is neutral in this affair...

btw. Immac., I liked your previous avatar and text (Copter with a bow)

 

[Immaculate]

Do you know what it was taken from?

 

[Marksman77]

Captain's Assembly of the Lanun imposes embargo on slave trade with Kuriotates. It has been well known to the public that within Lanun slavery is a means of punishment for criminals as well as a sanctioned method of repaying personal debts. It is against the law and morality to free such slaves before they had a chance to pay back their crimes to the society.
Some members of the Assembly are of opinion that freed criminals and debtors will return to their malevolent and criminal practices in their new homeland.

Captain's Assembly also draws attention to the fact that Grigori, the same that formed an alliance with Kuriotates, now declare neutrality. This alone is the most convincing proof of Kuriotate guilt.

 

[merciary]

In response to this recent controversy concerning slaves we of the Luchuirp offer a way to settle this so that everyone is pleased. We are willing to sell golems to any nation willing to buy under the condition that they abolish the slavery of other intelligent beings and use our golems instead. If you are interested in this offer please wait until the next update for prices and to give us enough time to settle some internal matters, but feel free to send a public reply (here in the thread) if you would like to do so.

 

[Ekolite]

To: Luchuip
From: Lord Agron, Calabim Internal Affairs

We are insulted by this offer. Slavery of the inferior races and classes is an integral part of many cultures across erebus. The Calabim, do not, on the whole, keep slaves, yet have a similiar Kraltavoi class of human criminals and traitors who serve for the pleasure and amusement of the ruling class. Whether this is deemed acceptable by the other nations of the world is irrelevant and Calabim Law does not change. You seek to undermine the very structure of our society.

 

[LDiCesare]

what province are you referring to?

I'm referring to province 14. My declaration was the first formal announcement concerning this question. Before that, there were only private negotiations between Kuriotates and Khazad. I decided to make this public since Kuriotates have tried to bully the Khazad, and other nations also suffered from the Kuriotates "diplomacy".

I still hope that Kuriotates will be reasonable and stop meddling with other people affairs, as it's not in anybody interest to shed blood.

 

[merciary]

To the Calabim

We had no intention of causing insult to any one. We simply made an offer to attempt to resolve this issue without anyone having to lose face by backing down. This offer will not be forced upon anyone. Of course the Calabim have an ... interesting situation that others do not have.

 

[Ekolite]

Jopa I can't send in orders because you havent sent me my stats or told me how many trade routes I have for this turn.

 

[arcticnightwolf]

... We are willing to sell golems to any nation willing to buy ...

## To TheJopa
Is there any better results (econo/socio) from replacing people with golems in mines?

## To Luchuirp
We haven't slavery, but working in mines is very dangerous, so Grigori nation will be interested in this offer, if there'll be any advantage (social/economical) from it... We'll contact you when our advisors work out, how to use them effectively (mean: after TheJopa answers on my question above)

 

[merciary]

Yeah, my financial advisors (TheJopa) can calculate the cost after the next Council meeting (meaning going to be asked in orders).

 

[loki1232]

In response to this recent controversy concerning slaves we of the Luchuirp offer a way to settle this so that everyone is pleased. We are willing to sell golems to any nation willing to buy under the condition that they abolish the slavery of other intelligent beings and use our golems instead. If you are interested in this offer please wait until the next update for prices and to give us enough time to settle some internal matters, but feel free to send a public reply (here in the thread) if you would like to do so.

I have already expressed my interest in your golems and will happily meet your price.

 

[LDiCesare]

What with the recent problems around slavery and the costs that varied, I decided to run a few examples to explain why slavery is still overpowered.

It's going to be a lot of math so I hide that in spoiler tags.

Comparison:
I compare tribalism, serfdom, arete, military state, slavery (20%) and slavery (30%).

Spoiler :

Tribalism: No benefits, but you get stab hits if you grow too big and don't change out

Slavery: -20% or 30% cost for buildings and improvements.

Military State: Reduces military upkeep. Currently you pay 1 gold p/t for each unit as long as you remain in your supply limit (5+2 units per city), 2 gpt for each over it until you hit twice your limit, then 3 gpt... Military state reduces this by one level - so you pay 0/1/2... Basically your supply is free long as you are in your supply limit.
In addition it reduces your city income by 1.

Serfdom: Villages are less effective (-1 gpt) but farms are more effective (+1 gpt). In addition, upon converting to serfdom, one village in each province is converted to farm, if possible, and one more farm in each province is provided for free.
I consider the free village to vanish if you switch out, and the farm to be returned to a village in that situation.

Arete: +1 gold and +1 stability per mine

I run 3 examples with 1 city where I try to run a scenario that should favor non slavery civics. I only build farms, villages and mines, and units since buildings are favored by slavery and would get too complex.

Case 1: Mines.
Mines are good for Arete. Let's build enough of them to get the maximum cost reduction and compare.

Spoiler :

9 mines provide 90% reduction in building costs. I consider I build 1 mine a turn. Slavery needs less mines and they cost less. Arete gets more gold out of them. I consider 10 turns duration.
Tribalism, serfdom:
1st mine costs 10, gives 1 gpt thus 9 gold.
2nd costs 18, gives 8gpt...
Total cost: 10 + 18 + 24 + 28 + 30 + 30 + 28 + 24 + 18
Total earning: 9 + 8 + 7+ 6 + 5 + 4 + 3 +2 + 1, + 5 from city each turn.
Net cost: 210 - 45 -50 = 115. Earn 14gpt.
Military state: Same except less gold from city: Net cost =125. Earn 14gpt.
Arete: Same except mines give +1gpt, but revenue is maxed at 20gpt per province, so: Net cost = 75. Earn 20gpt, +9 stability.
Slavery 30%: Need only 6 mines:
Mines cost = 7 + 12 + 15 + 16 + 15 + 12.
Income = 9 + 8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 .
Net cost: 77 - 39 - 50 = -12. Benefit of 12 gold, earn 11gpt.
Slavery 20%: Need 7 mines.
8 + 14 + 18 + 20 + 20 + 18 + 14
Income = 9 + 8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 3
Net cost: 112 - 42 - 50 = 20. Earn 12 gpt.

Slavery (30%) benefits 12 gold and earns 11gpt after 10 turns. Arete has paid 75 gold (87 difference), earns 20gpt and +9 stability. Serfdom pays 115 gold (127 difference), earns 14gpt.
Note the gpt difference with Arete can be compensated by building 3 villages for a total cost of 6 gold at that stage.

Case 2: Farms.
This one's trickier. Serfdom gets free farms, so they should compete here. But they also get a village turned into a farm. Let's build 5 farms.

Spoiler :

Actually, to get an idea of the best price, we must consider whether a mine is worth building, as it cuts prices. The 5th farm costs 50 gold, so a 10% cut is 5 gold. So 3rd, 4th and 5th farms built would get a 12 gold cut if you built a 10 gold mine first. I'll therefore start building a mine in all cases.For serfdom, who will get 1 free farm, and switching to serfdom late turns the village into a farm, for another benefit, which means serfdom doesn't need a mine but a village instead. Let's run 5 turns to get 1 improvement per turn:
Tribalism: cost is 10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50 = 150.
With a mine upfront, it's only 10 + 10 + 18 + 27 + 36 + 45 = 146.
Income is 4(mine) + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 14.
Net cost: 146 - 14 -25(city) = 107, earn 11gpt, + 5 stability.
Military state: Net cost = 112, earn 11gpt, + 5 stability.
Arete: Net cost = 103, earn 12gpt, + 6 stability.
Slavery (30%): Cost is 7 + 7 + 12 + 18 + 24 + 30 = 98. Net cost = 59, earn 11gpt, +5 stability.
Slavery (20%): Cost is 8 + 8 + 14 + 21 + 28 + 35 = 114. Net cost = 75, earn 11 gpt, +5 stability.
Serfdom:
Start in tribalism. Build vilage, farm. Then farm, farm. Switch to serfdom and build farm:
Cost = 10 + 10 + 20 + 30.
Income = 3 + 3 from village, which then becomes a farm for 2 turns at 2 income (4) . 8 + 6 + 4 + 4 = 32.
Net cost = 70 - 32 - 50 = -12. Benefit of 12 gold, earn 15gpt, +5 stability.
The trick is that it's ok to run serfdom only when you are done building your farms. If you start with serfdom, you'd pay 40 for the last farm instead of 10 for the first village, for 30 more gold and 2 less income, meaning you'd benefit from a mine.

In comparison, 10 farms would cost (without mine, just to make a fast computation): 550 gold, but for serfdom it would be 8 farms +1 village = 370. Slavery at 30% cut would pay 385.

Serfdom benefits 12 gold, earns 15gpt, but was actually run for only 2 turns out of 5 to be efficient.
Slavery(30%) costs 59, earns 11gpt.
Tribalism costs 107, earns 11 gpt.

Now the military: Just to keep it simple, you have 5 + 2 per city (let's say 3 cities) = 11 units inside your cost.
Suppose you build 15 units at 50 gold apiece.
Your income is 3*5 from city - 11 (units inside your limit) - 8 (over your limit) = -4gpt.
Military state makes it 3*4 -4 = +8gpt. Note that you had to build 3 units (at least 150 gold) to just break even. You'd better warmonger.

Conclusion:
Benefits of slavery are huge. The mines example shows it well. Serfdom is nice to get farms out, but if I run the example to get some villages in addition to farms (don't have time for that right now, I'll do it later), with the objective of having a net income of say 20gpt, I'm pretty sure it actually will show that it's not competitive.

Thus I ask to reconsider the 30% reduction cost fo slavery. Even at 20%, it's the most powerful labor civic and should be compensated for by bad events for those who use it/good events for those who don't.

Sorry for the rant, but I do think it's overpowered.

 

[LDiCesare]

I'm checking a more balanced scenario now:
Start with unlimited funds, 1 city, Build 1 improvement of each type per turn at most.
Goal = Over 6 turns, reach 25gpt in the province while maintaining 2 units worth 50 gold each.

Spoiler :

To get to 25gpt, you need at least 1 farm to increase the limit from 20 to 25.
Mines, farms, provide 1. Villages provide 3. Except for serfdom where farms and villages provide 2. I won't start in tribalism to switch to serfdom, considering this may be a new city.

We need 1 farm. The city grants 5, with the farm, that's 6. Need 19 more. 1 village = 3. 1 mine = 1 + cuts costs.
6 villages + 1 mine + 1 farm would do it. But the cost of 6 villages is 60 + 50 + 40 + 30 +20 +10 = 210. 10% discount is worth it if the mine costs less than 21, so 2 mines are going to be cheaper than 1. Means the 6th village is overkill. Another mine at 30 and a village at 20 are cheaper than the village at 60, so I go for 2 farms, 3 mines and 5 villages.

I build everything as soon as I can since the reduction from mine and the gain from 1 more turn compensate, it's not better to build a mine to decrease cost and wait one turn.

Tribalism:
1) Mine + farm + village = 30.
2) Mine + farm + village = 54.
3) Mine + Village = 48
4) Village = 28
5) Village = 35.
Total cost = 195.
Upkeep = 12.
Gain over 5 turns:4 +4 + 12 from turn 1, 3 +3 +9 t2, 2 + 6 t3, 3 t4. = 45, + 25 from city.
6th turn gain = 25.
Net cost: 112.

Slavery( 30%):
Costs :
1) 3*7 = 21.
2) 3 * 12 = 36
3) 2 * 15
4) 16
5) 20.
Total cost = 108.
Upkeep = 12.
Net cost = 25.

Arete:
Mines give 2 gold. So 1 farm, 5 villages and 2 mines are enough.
1) 30
2) 18
3) 24
4) 32
5) 40
Total cost = 144.
Upkeep = 12.
Net cost = 61.

Military State:
Same as tribalism but 0 upkeep and only 4 gpt from city. Thus I need one more farm or mine or to replace mine + farm by a 6th village. 2 farms + mine replaced by 1 village is replacing 20 + 30 + 30 = 80 by 60, so it's better to get 6 villages.
1) 3 * 10
2) 2 * 18
3) 24
4) 32
5) 40
6) 48
Total cost = 210.
Upkeep = 0.
Revenue = Only 24 from city. Improvements: Turn 2: 5, 3: 9, 4: 12, 5: 15, 6: 18 Total: 24 + 59 = 83.
Net cost = 127.

Serfdom:
Villages and farm both give 2. Mines give 1. So we need to balance farms and villages. We need 1 farm to reach 25 income, and get one for free. That leaves us with 18 gold to find. 2 mines leave 16, which is 4 villages and 4 farms.
So:
1) 3 * 10 = 30
2) 3 * 18 = 54
3) 2 * 24 = 48
4) 2 * 32 = 64
Total cost: 196.
Revenues: 30 from city. Improvements: Turn 2: 5, 3: 10, 4: 14, 5: 18, 6: 18. total= 65. Free farm: 2 * 6 = 12.
Upkeep : 12.
Net cost: 101.

This gives slavery a cost of 25, arete of 61 but with +2 stability, serfdom 101, tribalism 112 and military state 127.

I believe military state should get some cut on the cost of units because they are so bad at economics that they will never get to the place where their better upkeep costs matter. Of course, you can switch to military state once your infrastructure is over, but still, slavers can buy themselves one good or two cheap regiments in the last example because their economy is so much better...
And again, I expect good events to be more common for serfdom than arete or slavery.

 

[arcticnightwolf]

## ANNOUNCEMENT:
Grigori's labor has developed to neo-tribalism (same as tribalism, but without large-country penalty).

scrap from mail between TheJopa and ArcticNightWolf
Cassiel finds tribalism a "perfect government" where each helps each. So neo-tribalism allegiance is to your neighbor and state rather than tribe and family. Each helps each. Cassiel actually wants to form tribe but on large level.

 

[Immaculate]

OOC:

I problem with your math:

Doesn't your forth mine cost you a base of 40gold, your fifth 50 gold and so on, or does it cap at 30 gold or did i miss something.

Immac.

 

[Marksman77]

OOC and slightly off-topic:

Who said that in undeveloped economics slavery wasn't the most efficient system?
Just look at historical nations: starting from ancient times (slavery everywhere), through middle ages (peasants were much better than slaves) to South USA in 19th century. And how would you call cheap labour in China? Especially children working in factories.
Of course in modern economics, when innovation is valued, it's another story. But I say it's reasonable that slavery is the best economical option for simple economies.


Of course game balance is another thing.
But in game terms it's not just a simple economical calculation. Just look what Kurio could do because three nations were at slavery: for 15 gold they gained free village (at this stage of game this village can easily be worth 40-50 gold), gained stability and caused three other nations to lose stability.

 

[Immaculate]

OOC:
I'm slightly confused Marksman: how is that village worth 40-50 gold? Its my understanding that its worth 3gpt.

 

[LDiCesare]

OOC:

Doesn't your forth mine cost you a base of 40gold

Yes it does, but I only have 4+ mines in the mines example. In the mines example, the 4th mine costs 40 -30% = 28. The fifth costs 50 - 40% = 30, the sixth costs 60-50% = 30 too, so you will never pay more than 30 for a single mine, unless you build more than 300 in a single province.

I'm not saying that slavery shouldn't be the most efficient system to develop your economy. I'm just saying it is not slightly more efficient than anything else but overly so that any choice but slavery in terms of civics is mathematically stupid, unless there's a guarantee that events will turn the tide in favor of non slavers. Slavery description lets you 'expect events that increase gold income".
I also say that serfdom has about zero value as it is, and that military state should get a discount on buying units in order to have a chance to compete.
It's likely we will be building improvements and buildings for a very long time into the game. So the production bonus of slavery will hold that long. Everytime you create a new city out of an existing outpost, you'll be in the same situation too. Should someone pillage your province, or an earthquake, hurricane or whatnot, the same. So the bonus will essentially be valid during all game.

My weakest point may be for military state, but you need an ungodly amount of units for it to be worthwhile, and it is very situational (like: buy all units before switching to military state, wage war, disband and switch back to something else). An even very small cost reduction for building units would balance it a bit in my opinion.

Of course, all of this can be balanced by events, but it sure appears unbalanced.

I'm slightly confused Marksman: how is that village worth 40-50 gold? Its my understanding that its worth 3gpt.

He means you may have to pay 40 gold to build a village (4th village).

 

[arcticnightwolf]

This gives slavery a cost of 25, arete of 61 but with +2 stability, serfdom 101, tribalism 112 and military state 127.

whoa!

Is Grigori civilization with slavery acceptable from lore aspect? ... no, really!