Fall From Heaven NES

But Clan of embers (according to Jopa) is pretty much the shazaak...

true, it could also be sheaim-invaders instead, just for sure someone evil enough to enslave or exterminate the khazad in a rush :evil:

edit: infernals and illians would be evil enough to, but then again they probably would be too polarizing, isn`t it?
 
Meant to be a PM, but it's too long, and not really secret anyway.


All right...

It's a little sloppy; I had originally intended this to be a lot shorter, but once I started it was too fun to stop.

Anyway, this is a suggestion of a possible timeline for FFHNESI. Use whatever you want from it - you can steal it all, or ignore it entirely. I just had fun imagining it, and if nothing else it will give you an idea for what I'd like to see in the "renewal" years.

Spoiler :
The Amurite-Lanun War eventually encompassed nearly all of Erebus. Despite their best efforts, neither nation managed to gain the decisive advantage. The loss of their initial attack fleet had hurt the Amurites, but their armies had been just barely large enough to stall the first Lanun attack toward Acaia. The Calabim's had made their choice, and the coinflip had come against the Lanun. However, since the initial assault fleet had not managed to capture a Lanun city (woo-hoo for unique spells!), the few battered remnants of the Cala-Amurite army had retreated to Calabim lands only to encounter a Sidhan army moving through the vampire's empire. Both sides had been surprised, and though a bloody battle was fought the end result was the same as it had been at Acaia: stalemate.

In the north, the Shazaak had attempted a betrayal of their Lanun masters. However, this ended up being more of a triviality than anything, since they were without boats to sail with. They instead went after Avelorn, only to meet with surprise the Doviello army already there. A three way battle was fought, with the desperate men of the Free City trying to keep their enemies' larger armies out of the city and attacking each other. In the end, it was the surprise appearence of a ragged Kuriotate army that broke the seige. The Doviello and the Shazaak were both bloodied, but retreated in good order both are still determined to take Avelorn. Avelorn still refuses to rejoin their southern brothers, but a steady alliance has been reached and a slow stream of Kuriotate troops have given the city enough strength to withstand either of the barbarians' armies, though not both at once.

The Lanun interference in Pinea ultimately came to naught. They fought well, but when their contracts ended they left the province in a worse state than before. The pro-Balseraph faction was weakened, not defeated, and the only lasting effect was to ensure the civil war continued for some more years yet.

The Khazad had agreed to help the Amurites expel the orkish refugees from R'Rgorac. True to their word, they marched alongside the wizardly brethren, and after a surprisingly equal fight managed to scatter the last remnants of the greenskins far and wide. However, the Amurites had been much more weakened by the fight than the Khazad had been, and to their surprise the dwarves had refused to leave once the job was done. The prospect of Gems had been to much to let go, and with the Amurites busy on other fronts the dwarves (rightly) figured the Order-lovers would be forced to accept this little coup.

The real losers in all this were the Patrians. Beset in the north, the south, and the center part of the continent, the Patrians lost again and again. However, like some nebulous ideological plague, each defeat only served to make them stronger as fleeing troops tried to hide within cities, and while there, convert others. The effect of such troops far outweighs their actual damage from war, and with the exception of the Hippus lands their influence actually manages to grow somewhat.

The center part of Erebus, controlled by the Hippus, is perhaps the bloodiest of all. Their inner civil war is influenced by not one, not two, but three forign groups - the Lanun are obviously the strongest, but both the Patrians and the Amurites hold some interest as well. In the end, it is the combined power of money and sword-arms that decide it, and the vast majority of the Hippus swear to follow their new leader, Karimir's son Granmir. Under his chief generals, Hybor and Magnadine, the horsemen ride to the aid of their sea-loving brethren.


The next few years are riven with blood, as the various conflicts of North, East, and South carry many battles but no decisive victories. The only ones to largely escape this bloodshed are the Balseraphs, the Khazad, the Grigori, the Luichirp, and the people of Marreka (sp? I don't remember...). These lucky peoples watch the rest of the world with worry, hoping they are not drawn in.

For the most part, their hope is failed. The Lanun are desperate; they hold the strategic advantage at the moment, but they and their allies are weaker than the Amurites and their allies. In this desperation, they reach out to whoever will listen, and scheme against whoever won't. Some attempts fail; a few crucial ones succeed beyond their wildest dreams.

At the Lanun's influence, the waiting armies of Marraka pile into their Kuriotate neighbors. This weakens them, which draws troops away from Avelorn, allowing a new alliance of orc and wolfman to conquer that fair city. Unfortunately for the orcs, their alliance lasted only as long as Avelorn did, since the beastmen (again at Lanun urging) swiftly betrayed them and slay them to the man. More orcs live to renew their strength, but with no allies, they appear doomed. Fortunately for them, the Doviello also attack the Grigori - this time without any foreign urging - and here, they soon realize they bit off more than they could chew. The Grigori, while disorganized and leaderless, are still strong enough to carry a vicious guerilla war against the northern folk and every acre the Doviello capture looses them more men then they can afford.

In the West, Pinea continues it's own bloody war, unconcerned with the affairs of the rest of Erebus. However, others watch, and are concerned, and the appearence of what appears to be dwarven troops changes everything. In reality, these are actually Lanun doppelgangers, but to the Balseraphs, it's enough justification for a full-scale invasion. For the first time, the Joyful Army moves against a true enemy, and it's strength is unmatchable. Bears, Paramanders, walls... nothing stops them, and just like that two cities fall.

The Amurites watch this with growing terror. Stronger than the Lanun they may be, but they are also much more divisive internally and the war has caused these fractures to split further and further. Their vampire allies are warring, mostly with success, against the elves - yet they clamor for ever-larger amounts of troops and money, and threaten to declare neutrality or change their alliegance completely. Should the Balseraphs decide to continue their blitz into Amurite lands, there is little that could be done to stop them.

They attack. A percieved pause in the battle with the Lanun allows them to divert troops from other areas, and in an insane move the released Wizards move toward Jubilee. Against all odds, against all reason, the attempt works - and the city falls, along with the offshore islands. Deprived of their capital (not to mention Gold), the clowns divert parts of their powerful army to the south and east, moving to recapture their lands and take Ciriail.

In the far East, the united Calabim and Amurites have recovered from their initial surprise, and with superior numbers and quality they steadily force the Sidhans back. The elves' forests slow them down somewhat, but not enough to prevent them from setting a full siege to Eaca. A desperate elvish stand managed to prevent the loss of the city, but the enemy simply changes their objective. Leaving a strong force in seige, a full half of the army moves north against Evermore, which is undefended. It falls in three days.

While these "sideshows" go on, the main fight is occuring in the bare 150leagues between the cities of Acaia and Altheriol-ta-Mealthiel. The largest, best equipped, and best led armies fight on this plain, and the very grass is drowned from the blood spilled here. Whole units are destroyed in a single day, and their nations count that a victory. Charges of horse and centaur meet summon's flesh, Lanun elites meet Amurite conscripts, Wizards fight Adepts, and feats of heroism are made every day.

Despite Amurite divertion of forces to other fronts, the lines of battle push northward a little every day. Eventually, the armies fight at the very edge of the Hippus capitol, then within it. Each building is fought for; each must be destroyed by the southerners before it's capture, then destroyed again as desperate counterattacks regain it. All know the eventual outcome, however, and after a thirty-year campaign with four years of city battle, Altheriol surrenders. Lanun ships evacuate who they can, but no fleet existing could hope to carry all the wounded, much less the dead.


With such crushing defeats in both the south and the east, the Lanun sue for peace. The Amurites have gained little to nothing as of yet, but faced with their own created war in the west, they take the offer. The Calabim, faced with the prospect of losing an ally while gaining the Lanun's full concentration, also agree to peace. In the east, everything is more or less status quo ante bellum territory-wise, although the Sidhans commit to reparation payments. The Amurites keep the territory they gained, but the Lanun refuse all payment and the wizards are forced to accept this deal.

However, the Hippus refuse to allow a peace while their lands are yet occupied. They see this peace as no more than a temporary cease-fire. They continue to build up armies, which are funded in large part by the Lanun. The Lanun are, as always, less than content with what they have and still clamor for the return of their isle. Not only do they fund the Hippus, but they use their Esusian and smuggling contacts to create insurrection in Amurite lands.

The new Clown War is odd. The Khazad and the Amurites are not allied, and in some cases openly fight each other - yet in others, they cooperate against their mutual enemy. No matter; the Balseraph continue to push forward on all fronts, and even the reinforcements gained by the Amurites seem to only slow the advance, not stall it. Ceriail does, in fact, fall; but the last dwarven city continues to hold. It is said that some Luichirp are starting to be found amidst the bodies of the Khazad, but this is not proven.

Meanwhile, the War in the North is no less odd, nor bloody. The Doviello are stalled on all fronts, and worse, the Grigori seem to have found a capable military commander to lead them. He is declared as a dictator, and their people willing submit to his harsh command. It's working, and the stable lines of battle prove that.

The Marrekans are swiftly realizing their mistake. Imagining themselves strong, the honeyed words of the Lanun had easily persuaded them into their rash attack. However, they find the Kuriotates to hold some strength yet, and within a decade the official state of Marreka is utterly destroyed. There is still some insurrection, but not enough to seriously occupy Kurio forces, and these now move north to join in war with any that challenge them.

The people of Shazaak regain their army in a seeminly impossible time, and march to regain Avelorn. They find it burnt to the ground, with all inhabitants dead or enslaved. Their army, not knowing what else to do, retreats in disorder. The Kuriotates catch them, and for the second time in fifty years the Shazaak army is slain to the last man. There is much weeping over Avelorn, and the Kurio army begins to set up walls in preparation for it's rebuilding.

During all this, the Patrians continue to gain power. They are all but extinct in Hippus lands, but they hold near pluralities in Naggarond, Edge, Nimaril, and surprisingly, Acaia. Of these cities, Naggarond is most strongly theirs as those without Patrian tendencies move away to rebuild Kwythellar and Avelorn. Acaia comes in a close second, as many Patrian sympethizers settled there to avoid the prosecution they faced in other parts of the Amurite empire. Between these two centers of power, a plot slowly develops, and is set into motion. It is a slow plot, and the results will not come for some years yet.

Luichirp lands are quiet. Few enter; fewer leave. Some rumors are beginning, rumors that declare their created servants have overstepped their bounds somehow. The rest of the world is too busy to notice or care about this, though some few wonder why dwarves would be evacuating Luichirp lands in favor of the warring Khazad's.

The Calabim, now at peace, declare themselves sequestered from the world. They create a new city, [insert name here], that lies between Prespur and Nubia. They forget about regaining Acaia, and by all accounts, are happy to pursue their various twisted studies.

The Sidhans are rebuilding, as well. While the war had been quite devestating to them, and the repayments hard to swallow, they had created an opportunity. The rebuilt infrastructure was better than ever, and the effort to recreate it allowed for some... subtle... changes to the power structure there. The Winter and Summer Courts had begun to resume their infighting, and who knows what will come of it?

The Lanun, never content in what they have, are doing some growth as well. However, most of their focus lies not at home but abroad, and they are central to many secret efforts throught the world.

The Clown War is almost over. The Khazad are on the brink of surrender; the Amurites may fight for some little time yet, but once the dwarves fall all is lost for them. However... out of the desert, a sleeping power wakens. Robed tribesmen, few in number but of battle skill unmatched, leave the Malakia Sands. They declare their goal to be the spread of their Lugus religion, but from the outside it looks like they'll settle for simple conquest. The mighty Balserpah armies, that have defeated vast numbers already, are confident they can wreck these fools. They die. In short succession, Tagaste and captured Hallowel fall to them, as does the new city of R'Rgorac.

Faced with this new threat, the three formerly warring powers agree to settle. The Amurites regain Ciriail; The Khazad, Khazaak - in a stunning diplomatic coup, they manage to get Pinea and the new city there, as well; the Balseraphs get back their lost territories, as well as enough surrendered funds from the other two to start a new city off Danalin's Tears named [insert name here].

In the north, the twice-defeated orcs of Shazaak see the renewed forces of the Kuriotates before them. They surrender, and Shazaak becomes yet another testament to growing Kurio strength.


However... the long-ago plans of the Hippus/Lanun, as well as the Patrian's plots, now come to fruition. The Amurites had finally ended their long, long time of battle - and just in time, as a succession of bad harvests had caused riots that had brought them to the brink of civil war. At this time of joy, however, their hope was once again dashed.

The Patrians of Acaia, having secured nearly all the major elected positions, declared themselves part of a new United Nation. In Cimarail, others tried to do the same, causing terrible street battles. In far-off Naggarond, and even further-off Edge, similar men with similar dreams did the same. At the same time, the mightly Hippus lead a two-pronged attack at the Amurite heartland and Altheriol both; though they did not carry the city, they managed to destroy no small part of the Amurite breadbasket before being slowly driven back.

The Amurites, weary of war, quickly clamped down on insurrection within Cimarial. However, once that was done, they contacted Patrian and Hippus leaders, and declared their terms for peace. All Patrian sympathizers would be allowed (and, in fact, strongly encouraged) to stay in the newly free city of Acaia, and the Hippus would be allowed their old capital back. All three parties were content at this, for now, and southern affairs were like that of the East: peaceful, for the moment.

The Patrians of Kwythellar had the same strategy of the Acaiates, and met with nearly the same degree of success. There was, perhaps, more bloodshed - but the Kuriotates have always been a united group, not a single people, so accepting the loss off the city was not difficult for them.

At Edge, though, things werre quite different. From the start, it was a debacle as the supposed group for a "United Nation" was itself split into several factions. There were many who opposed the Patrians, yet they were very much divided as well. To make things worse, the Doviello had finally managed to get within shouting distance of the city, and their new tactic of "kill the strong, enslave the weak, and breed a lot" was proving rather effective. The citizens off Edge merely weakened themselves, and the Doviello easily conquered the town.

With the mixed results of the Patrian uprising, Erebus is finally at a point of peace. Over a hundred years of near-continous war have reformed it, but at this day, peace reigns again. Not for long, however...



So... if you've been counting and keeping careful attention (you haven't, but that's OK), you know the relative strengths. Just in case, though, I'll give a quick runthrough. I tried to give everyone at least the same number of cities they left with, so in order to create some new civs I force-built new cities. Some borders were changed a lot, others were basically static. The only big losers are the Grigori, but seriously, who cared about them anyway? Oh, and Shazaak, but if anyone wanted to be them they could simply take the Kuriotates to exciting new areas.


Spoiler :
Amurites: back down to 4 cities, they fought a lot so they lost a bit of infrastructure. Let's say they're weakened, but still probably #1 overall. Good economy, but a rather exhausted military.

Balseraphs: They still have 4 cities, but one of them is brand-new and located on their Gold island (or nearby). They're also quite strong, with a very stable economy/stability and decent military.

Calabim: They once again have 3 cities, since if they had chosed to side with the Lanun they could have easily gained Acaia back. They're a bit below average in military and economy, but have some neat tech bonuses to compensate.

Doviello: A new nation, created from the dust of the Grigori. Two cities, a really strong military, but weak economy and bad techs make this a part of the "wannabe" category.

Grigori: Down to a single city. Their main advantage is that they don't really have an identity right now, so they can become whatever the player wants them to be. Their economy is a tad weak, but to counteract the Doviello their army is stronger than you'd expect.

Hippus: Two cities, and get rid of that annoying chunk of Amurite land between them. As always, they're weak in economy, decent in tech, allied to the Lanun, and carrying a huge effing stick.

Khazad: Still three cities, although one of them is now in what used to be Pinea. Their influence hasn't really diminished, just moved north and east. Great economy, weak military. Average overall.

Kuriotates: Three cities, two of which are newly rebuilt. They're a weaker power, but an up-and-coming one. They have many influences, and no outright skills, making them flexible to whoever wants them.

Lanun: Same four cities, same land owned. Alright - so I was maybe a little biased - you can chop off the once-Kurio land. Small but experienced army combined with military techs and strong economy makes for the #3 nation in power.

Luichirp: Same three cities, same land owned. They were always kind of "forgotten"; I did the same in my timeline. To explain their apparent lack of interest in the outside, there's an implied golem rebellion that could maybe alter their goals, for whoever plays them. The most balanced nation, with average everything.

Malakim: The new kids on the Western block. Three cities (one shiny new!), a highly skilled army and weak economy makes these the pick for the warmongerer. No more can loki simply sit tight on expect to be left alone!

Patria: Two cities, but both of them are isolated. A challenge, since no one really wants to be your friend and you can't defend as well as some others. A weaker power, their only advantages are a very strong mentality (high stability) and better techs than you'd expect.

Sidha: Three cities, with unchanged land. They're still rather weak, but a newfound appreciation for infrastructure has at least allowed them to compete economically. They have... unique benefits from their Svart past, and the Ljos faction gives them a decent archer army. The weakest "strong" power.



Straight-up strength compare:

Spoiler :
"Strong" - the pre-existing major powers, preference probably given to former players

Amurites
Balseraph
Lanun
Khazad
Luichirp
Calabim
Sidha

"Medium" - expect to wait a bit before your day comes
Malakim
Kuriotates
Hippus

"Weak" - yeah... umm... just surrender to the Lanun now.
Doviello
Patrians
Grigori


These are based on two things; my best guess at strength at the last update, and how cool I thought the nation would be during the "skipped time". No offense to anyone, I hope. Again, sorry to the Grigori, but the north was crowded and someone had to lose out.

Oh - and in my imagined world, the difference between the levels is probably quite larger than that within them. So, the Sidhans could (if they god lucky, and fought like devils) hold against the Amurites; the Malakim would have virtually no chance unless they found a buddy or two. I don't know how many people Ldi would plan to have, but seven "strong" civs seemed reasonable, and the map and history nicely allow for six "weaker" civs.





So, there's a decent mix of strong and weak, new and old, and each civ is a little different in what they're good at when they start out. Sorry, but there are two non-canon civs (Sidha and Patria), but neither is exactly forbidden by the lore either.
 
Nice.... Ideas are so good that they are reducing quality of my own ideas ;)

I agree with Orange that a) Balancing WILL be necessary, but I do want some civs to be stronger than others, at least externally (internally they may face dissent or something to balance this) and b) I prefer many smaller events and realistic alternative history approach over some meteor or new age of ice...

Heh, I as it turns out, we should have few versions of NES running at the same time... Some plots simply start to appear in my mind, I plan to write them down and post them soon... Though I won't be running NES until mid of April. Either modding or playing NES is fine with me :D But I definitely want to post my version of events before deciding whats next step..
 
And to answer questions:

1) Battles are decided by troop number, quality, terrain, modifiers... And after all is taken into account dices are rolled - six sided, rolled 3 times. I usually have 3-4 scenarios pre-planed (catastrophic bad, balanced, good, heroic...) and depending on modifiers, sometimes not even rolling 1 will mean catastrophe, sometimes you need 5-6 to even avoid complete loss... Usually it's in between.

2) Huh, I don't remember now, I need to check last turn notes...
 
My goal was to create an update that had interesting things happen to everybody (which I failed at; the Luichirp as just too sneaky to remember all the time!), and while it was perhaps not the likeliest possible thread it was definately possible using only "normal" orders and events. There aren't any glaring abnormalities (even the Patrian and Malakim's risings have a precedent in the Hippus). I even tried to factor in some of the behavior of players, and what I think they would actually do in such situations. Maybe the Amurites' sudden attack was out-of-character for Immac, but dammit, it was an interesting storyline.

The real trouble I had was in deciding just how strong the Bals were. I made them very, very tough in my timeline - perhaps a bit more than was justified - but again, it made for an interesting story.
 
Based on some intelligence, Balseraph military wasn't that strong. Strong sure, but not overly so.
Also, Luchuirp and Balseraphs were trade partners forever and I can't see the Luchuirp helping the Khazad against Balseraphs as is hinted.
Last, dopplegangers are way too overpowered imho. If you can let some sneaks mimic another race, and as many of them as a regiment, magic is far too powerful to allow any diplomacy, as anyone anywhere could be a doppleganger. In the regular FfH, there's only one occurence of something like this, and it's Faeryl, who's a leader and probably the most powerful follower of Esus.
 
tyrs- i was always interested in the use of the svart world spell- did you ever use it?

ldi- if i may make a small suggestion, you should let people add a bit of 'flavour' to the civ they choose before summerizing the 'in between times' so that the nation they adopt at the end of the 'in between times' has their 'stamp' on it a bit or otherwise reflects what they would like to play.

-also- you SHOULD try to make all the nations (at least the great nations) equal... i was told about a dozen times that the reason i was doing well was because thejopa had given me unfair advantages and it was really incredibly annoying because how can i counter that argument? I don't know their stats... and i don't want to share mine and it basically means everything i did was because of some unfair advantage.

- also- if we are doing this again i am renouncing the amurites. but i would still like to play. Someone else can be the ammurites if they want.
EDIT: i wouldnt midn trading with thomas for the shazaak if he wants his old amurites back... :)
 
I'm keeping my Lanun. Sure, they weren't technically "mine" to begin with, (thanks, Marksman!) but they've grown on me. Besides, 'tis too entertaining to be able to mess around with other people, yet stay safe on mine island.


@Ldi: Yeah, I figured so, but on the other hand I think the Bal's economy was probably strong enough to build up a pretty beastly army. And if you think that the Balseraph's army was the most unreasonable Western force, you need to peek at the Malakim again... ;)

Oh, and the Luichirp that "fought" with the Khazad weren't necessarily doing so; they could simply have been caught in the battle while fleeing the implied golem rebellion. And, yes, I know that golems shouldn't technically be able to do that, put maybe in this Erebus Barnaxus came back a lot more pissed than before.

The Lanun doppelgangers were more of a good plot excuse than anything; however, the Amurites had Nietz, so it's not exactly unreasonable. Smugglers would help, too - and I tried to give the vibe that the Bals were looking for an excuse more than a real reason to start marching.

@Immac: You're right; it is tough to prove the negative. However, the only person who truly knows what advantages or disadvantages you gained is Jopa, so the rest of us (including, perhaps, you) just have to guess. What I would have to say probably happened is that Jopa gave you a few, rather minor boosts - which, for most players, would have been just about right - but you played them well enough that the seemingly "minor" buffs ended up becoming rather more than that. In retrospect, they were then perhaps too large, but at the time they seemed reasonable and in most situations, they would have been.

And boy, do you like a challenge... the Shazaak? Really? I would almost rather take the as-is Kurios than the as-is Shazaak. The orcs are just in too tough of a position - the Doviello are going to push hard on the west, the Kuriotates are still rather strong enough to prevent a large move to the south, and Avelorn has some pretty powerful protectors. Although, really, there aren't a lot of good choices of Northern civs, with the possible exception of the Doviello (or, to be precise about it, the Sons of Asena).

Anyway, I still think that having not-completely-equal civ strengths to begin would be a nice reward for the players that did well before the update. Granted, there are a lot of different measurements of "did well", but any of the old players should definitely get some leeway to choose what they want to be strong in. The issue with making players have relative strengths is that it's hard to change positions later; that's a flaw of exponential-growth systems, and not easily corrected. Wars help a bit, but generally they seem to only lower the strength of involved parties rather than actually raise anyone up - or, at least, to only raise a person up quite slowly, since both you and I ended wars one city ahead of where we started. I would hazard a guess that the War that Never Was would have corrected that, though, and that we both both would have ended weaker than we started...

Anyway, the point is, it's tough to go up the power rankings unless the mod puts you there or the people ahead of you move down. Again, there is only one real exception to this is you, and your tech trading isn't something that can be done by everyone, or even much more than once or twice barring some weird event. Going down is easy, if enough people want to put you there - note the Grigori./Kurios - but I digress. It's a tough proposition to try and create a system that allows for a weaker player (with good leadership) to grow faster than a stronger one and surpass him.

To my eyes, either you focus more on letting war be a winning proposition to rival economy, or you have to create hidden "rubber band" benefits to weaker players that let them compete. Now, I don't like having bunches and bunches of secret bonuses - that's not a dig at you, Immac, I swear - so I would like to see wars be just a bit more beneficial to aggressive parties. The way we have it now, it's almost hilariously easy to defend your cities (the Kuriotates created something like 10 Militia, plus some Hunters, solely through drafting) - so you need to do one of a few things:

a) come with massively overwhelming force (see Amurite/Calabim); however, I doubt that anyone but the Amurites could field such an army
b) fight a long, bloody war of attrition (see Kuriotate War); tough to win unless you're already stronger or have more allies (again, Kuriotate War)
c) be a mod-creation, emerging out of nowhere with a sizable force (see Hippus, Doviello); that's fun to have every once and awhile, but annoying if it happens every damn turn
d) wait until someone else's war is over, then sneak in and take something from the defeated party; only possible if the previous war ended in a total dissolution of the other nation (which meant that that player simply quit)


None of these are any good to a weaker, preexisting nation. I think that the combat system should be looked at, just a bit, to allow better/more creative orders to lead a nominally weaker army to defeat a stronger. Perhaps morale could be a factor, so that smaller, yet more determined and warlike nations could get a more measurable gain than just great orders. I think that a small change here could go a long way, especially since the players seem to tend toward allied wars, instead of one-on-one.


@ Jopa: Here's a question: were the Kuriotates really the strongest nation when they were first invaded? Everyone seemed to assume they were, but all they really had at the time was a bunch of land, so there's nothing obvious to prove that point. In fact, most of their army came from drafting, so they never even really spent a whole ton of money.
 
And, sorry, double post:

Has anyone tried to PM merciary or loki, to get their opinion on all this stuff? The rest of us have been popping around to some degree (mostly Immac and myself: The Great Thread Fillers!), but they haven't shown at all. It would be nice to see if they are still interested at all, to get ideas if they have some, or to see if we should be trying to fill spaces.
 
Without a major event, I can't see how the situation could degenerate into countries of equal power. The example shown by orangelex for instance is enormously advantageous for the Lanun, who more or less keep all they have and more.

Here's a draft of an evolution I'd deem logical, although it's not satisfying:
Spoiler :

Early developments)
Amurites strike Lanun with Calabim help:
Amurite fleet sunk by Lanun in the Great Western Sea.
Raid on Lanun islands: magical winds help sail there and one of the cities is badly damaged but Amurites are sent off. They fall back on the mainland north of the wastelands of he black prince and take control of it.

Khazad strike orcs and wipe them with some amurite support.

Lanun and Hippus strike Patrians near Naggarond.
Khazad strike Patria.
Patrians of the north fall back on Naggarond and take control of ti but are besieged there. They retain influence with Grigori lands. Amurite intervention in the south drive Patrians into Hippus lands, where the Patrian Hippus join together. They decide to flee the aea and rejoin their allies south of Nagyr groove. There, all Patrian Hippus and Amurite forces march north to join with those at Naggarond. They defeat Lanun faithfuls there, and the war chiefs flee. This effectively splits Hippus land into western Patria and eastern chiefdom.

Khazad cripple smugglers.
Most nations benefit from this but Sidha and Lanun lose about 10% of their income source.

Lanun army busy in Pinewood peninsula.
Balseraph intervene in Pinewood.
They push the Lanun out of the way, and Lanun are all too happy to leave after pillaging a lot of materials.

Sidha do some murky stuff, mostly preparing atttack over Amurites, maybe destabilising them a bit.

Marreka asks for support from the Luchuirp who agree to found their fourth city there.

Shazaak attack Avelorn and take it.

Doviello take over Grigori.

Later on)
Lanun strike back with Sidha reinforcements into Calabim lands through SAndstorm heart, attacking Amurite forces near the Lanun both from sea and land. Amurite armies there get crushed. After the first shock, Calabim recover and with Amurites they drive Sidha out of their land. Lanun lands have been recovered.
Khazad defend against Doviello attacks and leave Patrians alone.
Pro-Balseraphs take over Pine Peninsula.
Luchuirp and Balseraphs decide to use the opporunity of the Lanun/Amurite war to strike Amurites:
Luchuirp golems march through friendly Hippus lands and take Nimarail with the help of Balseraph fleet. Balseraph take control of the city and the north of the province and a Patrian corridor is annexed by Luchuirp.

Resulting situation:
Khazad: Mostly unchanged, atttacked by Doviello, lost their influence over Kuriotates.
Balseraphs: Gain Nimarail.
Calabim: Army mostly destroyed.
Sidha: Economy badly damaged.
Lanun: Economy totally wrecked..
Amurites: lost fleet, many troops, one city. Unrest.
Hippus split in western Patrians and eastern chiefs.
Grigori and Avelorn disappear.
Doviello and Shazaak grow.
Patrians turtle in Naggarond and may have taken over Kwythellar.
Hippus reduced to Alteriol-ta-Mealthiel.
Luchuirp gain land south and new city (Mareka)

Pros:
Differences between nations are lesser than now.
Cons:
Still too many differences to my taste.
Balseraphs, Luchuirp are still big.

There are many things in the current situation that wouldn't turn into a balanced situation: Many small factions who can't grow big overday. Amurites would have to be attacked/betrayed by neighbours for no good reason in order to get weakened.

i was told about a dozen times that the reason i was doing well was because thejopa had given me unfair advantages and it was really incredibly annoying because how can i counter that argument?
Even if that had been the case, so what? I think it's funnier to work with constraints. If you are given a weaker side and can do something with it, good for you. Austrians didn't expect to lose their emperor and all their nobility at Sempach against ten times less numerous, untrained peasants. S**t happens, you have to deal with it.
 
The Lanun doppelgangers were more of a good plot excuse than anything; however, the Amurites had Nietz, so it's not exactly unreasonable. Smugglers would help, too - and I tried to give the vibe that the Bals were looking for an excuse more than a real reason to start marching.
No on both account.
Dopplegangers are hyper powerful. Nietz is a lore character that is a bandit with hidden nationality. This has nothing at all to do with faking someone else's nationality.
As for smugglers, they would have been incapacitated soon considering they were infiltrated and I had started pouring quite a lot of money into that myself. Since yourself you are in favor of "more beneficial to aggressive parties", I think you'll agree that it may cost less to destroy/cripple infrastrucutre or a project than it did to build it. So basically within an upadate or two, your smugglers would be out of business unless you sank a lot more gold into it to save them. They wouldn't have been able to hurt much.

Esus might be another matter. The Council could definitely cause major damage where it wants to strike.

There are other things I would deem unrealistic in your update:
As I said Luchuirp would probably side with Balseraphs due to trade routes.
Khazad wouldn't turn on Amurites since Amurties haven't been known to cause them any problem and were paying them nicely (1 tech) to get rid of orcs which are old-time enemies anyway, so turning on them seems not very realistic.
Also, why would Lanun intervene in Pinea to cause Balseraph/Khazad war? Strengthenig the Balseraphs wouldn't seem to be in their interest, although they may want to avoid to see Khazad siding with Amurites.

I'd be interested in hearing how everyone thinks the current situation could have evolved and how they would like their nations of choice to have evolved.
 
I think the Calabim would be in an excellent position as long as they were not completely decimated by the war. We would have been fielding Vampire Armies by then, which Jopa often hinted would be hugely powerful with the right techs. We were also developping Soul-absorbing Priests which stole the souls of enemies to use in spells or the creation of spectres.

Also, although this is going much more into the story rather then gameplay, Flauros was due a return to Erebus which could have lead to a much more tyranical and warlike Calabim nation. I think we probably would have devoured a lot of our population to create a vast army, then march on the Elves or Hippus and conquer these lands to replace our decimated homeland.

Jopa and I discussed the creation of Calafarl (or similiar, better name), a Vampiric elf faction. That would have been an interesting outcome, but I will probably want to play what ever becomes of the Calabim so Tyrs may have an objection to that.
 
@Ldi: Again, I fully realize a lot of wouldn't be teh logical things to happen, but since when did logic mean anything? Was it logical for me to tick off the Amurites with the R'Rgorac orcs? Was it logical for the debate over Grindstone to turn into a nation-killing war? Was it logical for the Amurites to change their government not once, but twice in one update (incidentially causing the Patrian's rise)? No, no, and no - that's why I included some of that stuff.

And I'm pretty sure you would have considered doing exactly what I said you did: hold onto the Amurite land, and dare them to extend to war to take it back. You probably wouldn't have done so, but it's much more likely than the Amurites' preemptive strike against the Bals.

And, again, I assumed that the Bals were looking for an excuse to attack the Khazad. That may not be true (and, in fact, probably wasn't) but if they had been. having ill-disguised Lanun posing as Khazad would likely have been enough. My whole goal was to create an Eastern war that would allow the Malakim to fill in some of the void.

Also, it's true that the Lanun didn't lose a whole lot (other than some useless land on the mainland), but I did try to let everyone at least keep the same number of cities they had ended with in the last update. The only exception are the Amurites, since I thought havign five cities whould be a little bit too much of an advantage. Soem other civs had to get newly-created cities, and ended up losing more territory than the Lanun, but in part that's because the Lanun simply aren't located in the thick of things. And because I LOVE them... ;) ...but I wouldn't necessarily say the whole thing ended up to the Lanun's great advantage, since the war and their various plots pretty much devastated their economy and most of their army, leaving them at square one.

I tried to leave everyone in the roughly same position they started with, strength-wise: however, I don't know everyone's details of economy or whatnot, so there was a lot of guesswork. I also didn't take simply economy into account; I tried to factor in military oomph, location, techs, and intangibles.



Anyway, your timeline looks just as interesting. It does, perhaps , do a couple odd things - why the hell do the Bals gain a fifth city? - but I like how I win the war :D (with Bal help, but still...). I would, perhaps, like to see more factions created but that's a personal choice. I like chaos.

I do think it's perhaps a little less balanced even than mine, since some civs inexplicably gain cities while the Amurites end up the big-time losers.
 
And I'm pretty sure you would have considered doing exactly what I said you did: hold onto the Amurite land, and dare them to extend to war to take it back. You probably wouldn't have done so, but it's much more likely than the Amurites' preemptive strike against the Bals.
Of course I considered it. If they hadn't given paiment, I'd have taken over that land, but paiment was offered and so it wouldn't have made sense to create a new enemy out of a relatively trusted nation. Given the current situation, I think it's more unlikely for Khazad to betray Amurites than for Bannor to spring out of hell right now.

I acknowledge, and said, that my timeline is not balanced. It's just one of the most likely ones I could foresee.

To make the game interesting and situations more or less even, Amurites have to suffer, which means they should either split due to civil war, or lose something. The timeline I wrote could easily be changed by giving Nimarail to the Luchuirp and letting Mareka independant, or taken over by either Shazaak or Patria, which would result in a more balanced situation. Calabim still end up in a pitiful situation, though.
Still, all the proposed moves would have to be approved by the players who would take over the nation, and alternative developments by the players, at least concerning the nation they want to take over, would be very interesting to get.
 
Regarding the number of factions, I merged some in order to make smaller factions like Shazaak and Doviello more attractive to players. Patria rose as a nation and is a viable choice too. Hippus less so, but someone motivated to play them would be able to change the story and have them more powerful. It would also be possible to have something rise from the wastelands or Shiny Peninsula or to split the Amurite empire.
 
Something spawning in the wastelands or shiny peninsula would screw the calabim over even more then they are already being screwed over :).
 
But why did the Balseraphs get a fifth city?
It seems reasonable that they would be doing something, and that they have ties with the Luchuirp, so together they would gain something. Since I gave a city to the Luchuirp, the Bals would take the one they conquered.
It is not balanced. I just say it seems likely, and as I said, I think the current situation is unstable and would lead to some nations getting an even bigger advantage than what they currently have. I illustrated this by giving an advantage to some nations which haven't been involved in wars so far and thus have lost very little (Bals and chuirp). This is also why I think a nasty event that shocks the world rather than small changes is more likely to lead, believably, to a situation that is more balanced.
To make it clear, I am not proposing the storyline above as-is, I'm just throwing ideas of alternatives and would like to see others do the same as you did. I think Jopa would be the most likely to write something consistent wiht the world obviously.

btw I PM'd Loki, merciary and tyrs so they may check the thread in case they didn't see the recent activity.
 
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