NES/IOT Merger Poll

[Zack]

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I don't mean any offense, but I don't understand why they care so much about the merger if they don't even play on CFC. Honest question, I don't get it. If you've already abandoned CFC for a new site, why would you care what happens to the CFC NESing community? (who as far as I can tell seem to generally be in favor of the merger, afaik it's the off-site NESers that are opposed to it)

I'm not even sure what's so horrible about the merger in the first place, though.

 

[Luckymoose]

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I don't mean any offense, but I don't understand why they care so much about the merger if they don't even play on CFC. Honest question, I don't get it. If you've already abandoned CFC for a new site, why would you care what happens to the CFC NESing community? (who as far as I can tell seem to generally be in favor of the merger, afaik it's the off-site NESers that are opposed to it)

I'm not even sure what's so horrible about the merger in the first place, though.

This isn't about the merger. I'm not opposed to it. This is about the way the community is being treated. You, and others, seem to think the community here and the community elsewhere are separate. We are not. We still work together, share games through mutual hosting, and have been a collective group of friends and associates for over a decade running. There is no hard divide in people here and people there. NESing is a hobby that is not tied to a single forum. Things that happen here affect us as a whole.

 

[Zack]

Fair enough, I didn't realize that. I was under the impression that the new site, and the community involved with it, was divorced from CFC.

 

[Sonereal]

Well... to be fair, whether the vote is "aye" or "nay", I don't expect the expats to come back. The question of merger is separate from the question of whether or not the expats will come back.

 

[Luckymoose]

Well... to be fair, whether the vote is "aye" or "nay", I don't expect the expats to come back. The question of merger is separate from the question of whether or not the expats will come back.

The merger isn't about coming or going. It is about how we'll be counted for future votes on changes to the hobby subforum, such as removing links to other forums we play on, links to our IRC channels, cross-forum games, etc. If they can segregate us on this, they can do it on much more important things.

 

[Ailedhoo]

I sense the main methodology to ease tensions is humility... on the part of those who spark the Exodus by fending off the critics of a caller of violence. We will need room to be able to question policy on this 'family friendly' site.

It is a shame that this thread had to be hijacked over the whole thing but I understand why.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Lefty, how much would you describe yourself as the embodiment of elitism in the moderatorial class? Because you're kind of acting that way right now.
As a fairly neutral party on the merger,

Recall that I am a mostly neutral on the merger as well, I have not even voted.

I have no stake in the outcome, other than it being easier for administration to leave things the way they are.
I am interested in how the discussion from current CFC users indicates things might be better or not for them by a merger.

I do not care if the CFC users in these two subfora chose to maintain their current distinctiveness and separation or combine their strengths and activity. That is up to them. I have also said that I would be hesitant to impose a merger on one forum whose active users object even if outvoted by others, but I am not going to give a minority veto to persons who have effectively left here, but they get to vote and be heard in the main poll. Nor am I going to let fallacious trash talk against CFC members and staff from a few self exiles who cannot abide the rules that thousand of other members are OK with go unchallenged. As for elitism, decades ago my ego had already expanded in real life to fill every corner of the 11 dimensions of the universe (damn thing is too small for me, I may have to switch to Bosonic string and get 15 more dimensions). Nothing that happens on CFC or elsewhere in cyberspace could add to it.

 

[Luckymoose]

I am still part of this community, and am affected by your decisions. You have no right to judge who is and who isn't part of the thing you have not taken the time to study, Lefty.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

>implying anybody in this thread outsmugs me
I honestly can't tell how serious the last ten posts have been except the ones by LM. That's how much I am enjoying this thread.

Well, at least a few of us have a sense of humor.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

an effected party asking a legitimate question.

Is that what you call this false statement? I see neither a question nor any legitimacy there.

I like how none of the NESing community has been informed of this. Good job, our chosen leadership.

After this he begins talking about discounting a fairly wide swath of the community in a way that precisely disenfranchises the group most opposed to the merger. ?

How does possibly allowing a special minority veto (an extra chance for a no vote result) to each of the two most interested groups hurt the no voters?

 

[SamSniped]

Is that what you call this false statement? I see neither a question nor any legitimacy there.

How does possibly allowing a special minority veto (an extra no vote) to each of the two most interested groups hurt the no voters?

It splits the no voters, as some wouldn't go as far as to veto it. Small technicality, but you'd see a difference in the poll results.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I'm missing something here:

Can someone explain what potential micracilous benefits we would gain from a merger?

Additionally,

Can someone explain what terrible calamity would befall both communities if we were merged?

Because I don't understand the fuss. I might have at one point but not anymore. Please, someone explain to me.

Well, nobody has really directly answered this question, but from musings on the forum and chat I've gathered a list of pros and cons, most of them dubious.

Pro-Merger:

-It might lead to a greater playerbase for all parties (this is a dubious claim, I will say why in a later part of this rant)

-It will bring a final conclusion to this frankly stupid discussion.

Anti-Merger:

-We can't let IOTers/NESers in here! T-they'll see the big board! Also they're scumbags (Dubious).

-Moderators are literally Hitler so I'm voting "no" (Again, Dubious)

Am I being unfair to one, or both opinions? Maybe. But I have asked in this forum and I have gotten no explanation aside from a multi-page circlejerk about unrelated things like the exodus. If someone can give me an argument for either side that I can't instantly dismiss as rubbish, then I will be happy to reconsider my opinion.

(The reason I find the greater playerbase claim dubious is from a personal experience. I don't like playing many normal NESes, many of which seem to be alt-historical games set at least ~1000 years ago, or in another world with similar levels of technology. I myself prefer very recent alt-history or futuristic stuff. When games that are played like that in IOT I don't play them and I doubt I would play them after a merger either. And on the odd occasion I have been interested in a NES I have gone to NES to play it.)

While the benefits to a merger seem close to none, the arguments against a merger are even more dubious. So, putting aside all dubious arguments for and against the merger, we are left with one argument in favour of the merger and none against the merger. The argument in favour of the merger is that people might finally shut up about the merger. And that's why I am voting "YES".

"But Ninja," you may ask "If you don't think that either option will make a difference in the long run, why are you even voting?" To answer that questions, let me respond with an anecdote.

Imagine that you live in a small town. Now in this small town, there is a debate about whether wearing hats in a church should be allowed. Currently it is not. You aren't very religious so you don't go to church very often, so you don't really have a stake in the debate. However, people from the pro-hat and anti-hat sides are making the issue sound really serious. The pro-hat people say it is "necessary for the town to get rid of this archaic rule so we can keep up with the rest of the modern world". The anti-hat people say "it will destroy the very fabric of society." You think "Jeeze, this could actually be a serious issue."

So you research it and then you realise that isn't a serious issue. You are very happy to drop it. However, nobody else is. Every time you go to the market place or interact with other townsfolk, there's talking about "Hatgate" and related nonsense. So you are sick of hearing about it. However, you can't just ignore it either as someone might make a proposal like "let's ban all hats" that you couldn't ignore. Anyway, after a while there's a referendum about the hat issue. So you go in and vote "YES" because you think that if people can finally wear hats in church everyone would realise what a non-issue this is and finally shut up about this issue.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Also, Lefty and Birdjaguar, please consider this: Some people left - whether temporarily or permanently - because they felt the staff here don't respect them or think their opinions matter. By finding all these reasons to exclude people from having valid votes or subjecting these hypothetical votes to some convoluted formula, you are just going to give them even more reason to believe you don't respect them or value their opinions.

Again, the no vote has very little to do with what what of this poll and more to do with the how. The way you've pushed to remove segments and segregate the vote is completely unwelcome in such a public poll of communities. You haven't taken the time to consider how absolutely unfamiliar you are with either community or who/what/how they operate when you toss out weird deadlines of activity or other stipulations.

No one cares about the merger so much as how CFC staff is carrying this out, treating the communities, and ignoring concern. Birdjaguar mentioned some fractional voting system? What the hell are we to you people? Last I checked I wasn't being shipped off to pick cotton in Mississippi.

I should have anticipated that you would see fractional votes that way.

BirdJaguar's brainstorm about fractional votes was rather odd. He is known for thinking outside the box and coming up with innovative ideas. I do not know where this one came from, but I know where it is (not) going to the land.

Cause a lot of voters aren't voting based on that, but on the merger. I can count several Yes votes who agree with me but voted for the merger. This isn't about the merger, but the way you and the staff are handling this. You can be smug all you want, but the community is extremely conscious of this kind of bologna.

You know, I was prepared to just let this one slide. Live and let live, I don't come here any more, and what you guys want to do with your forum is your business.

But now Lefty has turned it into a referendum on himself; he is being smug, self-satisfied, and convinced that his 'moderating' style works.

Well, screw that. If this vote is about Lefty, and is going to be perceived as an endorsement of the current regime, I'm going to be whipping this vote for NO.
.

I wish people would stop making this vote about the Mods. Its not about that so lets not turn it into that

This isn't about the merger. I'm not opposed to it. This is about the way the community is being treated. You, and others, seem to think the community here and the community elsewhere are separate. We are not. We still work together, share games through mutual hosting, and have been a collective group of friends and associates for over a decade running. There is no hard divide in people here and people there. NESing is a hobby that is not tied to a single forum. Things that happen here affect us as a whole.

The poll is a simple yes/no question of very limited scope and simple consequences: should we merge two subforums. The discussion has changed the focus from that simple question to a more complex question of moderators and their moderation. And unless a poster says which poll they are voting in, EQ will not know what their vote means. If I were counting votes, I'd count Lucky's "no" as a "yes" since the poll is not intended as a referendum on moderators. I'd go with a full "1" and not "3/5" though

On top of the confused topic of the poll, we have another dimension: former CFC NESers who have left the site for the Frontier. That group is further divided into those who still post at CFC and those that have stopped posting here. Many of those now at the Frontier were long time posters that were instrumental in creating and shaping the NESing community at CFC. While they may have left CFC, I'm sure that the emotional ties are less easily severed.

So how do we count the results of the poll? Lines have to be drawn somewhere and EQ has laid out where he has placed his. I would draw them differently. As I see it, the poll is very simple and very specific and its purpose is to answer a single question about how the IOT and NESing forums will be situated in the future: as one forum or two.

While everyone wants to be important and influential when faced with the opportunity to be so, not everyone should be. Non NESers and non IOTers should not be counted if they vote. In this instance, they add nothing to the purpose of the poll. Those recently active (not defined here) in either forum should be encouraged to vote. They are the ones whose future is being written. That leaves a final group of posters: those who used to participate, but have chosen to leave and as yet have not come back because they are upset with how they feel they have been treated. With their departure they made a statement that they do not have an interest in participating in the future of the CFC community. They even went so far as to open up a competing site to draw additional players away from CFC. There is a very easy case to be made that they should not have any say in whether or not the two forums are merged. If they want to be influential at CFC, they need to get their asses back here and let everyone benefit from their game playing expertise and experience.

I think that approach is a bit harsh. By giving such posters a half a vote, we recognize both their long term value to the community, as well as, their decision to leave the community as an act of protest or dissatisfaction. If enough of them come back to vote they could have an impact on the results. If only a few, then not so much. That seems appropriate to me. My goal was to match a posters influence in the poll results to their commitment to the future of the community.

For the record, the NESing community has already made itself clear on what they think of the moderator staff and how they do things. I thought that was made known last September. I don't see how applying that topic to this poll accomplishes anything, but to pick at festering wounds.

 

[North King]

I mean, I don't care much about this particular topic, but my not-caring and my abandonment of everything except the Sports Talk forum basically stems from how awful this moderation staff has been to its members. I could and should and would still be on CFC. I loved this site to pieces for literally over a decade, and I poured my absolute heart and soul into keeping a game running for half of that decade.

I went off-site, yes.

But I am baffled by the idea that all this means I was abandoning the NESing community. Lucky cares about the community in his own, abrasive way; pretty deeply, as well. So does CD, and thomas, and any number of others. If they have an opinion on it, why shouldn't it be heard?

Look, I hate melodrama, and I hate sweeping declarations written like I'm a 19th century poet bursting at the seams to tell you how the beauty of eternity is found in a toadstool. So I won't stand here and say, "I didn't abandon the community; it abandoned me." What I will say is that this kind of dickery is 1/3-3/5 of the reason I took my internet shenanigans offsite, and is certainly why I'm staying away.

So, yeah, I guess I'm saying: merge it if you want, don't merge it. But if you actually want to heal that community breach, knock it off. There is absolutely no reason to treat the CFC mods with respect when I got more courtesy from the 15 year olds that I taught.

P.S. I recognize that these words were wasted for the group they were intended on convincing, so... yeah, I dunno. If you're just going to snark, don't even bother.

P.P.S. It is interesting though not at all surprising to note that the majority entirely comes from IOTers. When I count people I recognize as NESers using a very generous definition (i.e. people who appeared in my comprehensive survey of NESes from 2013-2014), it's a roughly 55%-45% vote against. Which I guess complicates the issue of whether you want a larger subforum to dictate what happens to a [currently] smaller one.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

That's nice.

That's not a helpful response to a legitimate complaint.

Also, Lefty and Birdjaguar, please consider this: Some people left - whether temporarily or permanently - because they felt the staff here don't respect them or think their opinions matter. By finding all these reasons to exclude people from having valid votes or subjecting these hypothetical votes to some convoluted formula, you are just going to give them even more reason to believe you don't respect them or value their opinions.

I should have anticipated that you would see fractional votes that way.

I don't claim to speak for Luckymoose, but honestly, Birdjaguar, how else would you expect me to see your statement that you think some peoples' votes are worth just a fraction of others' votes based on some bizarre criteria you've decided for yourself? Even Lefty doesn't appear to agree with you!

I'm still curious about why you wouldn't want Perfection's vote to count, if he should choose to vote on this issue. If it's because he's neither a NES nor IOT participant, that's reasonable (note that I don't know if he is or isn't). If he is, or has been in the past, not counting his vote (or only counting some odd fraction of it) would be unjust.

While everyone wants to be important and influential when faced with the opportunity to be so, not everyone should be. Non NESers and non IOTers should not be counted if they vote. In this instance, they add nothing to the purpose of the poll. Those recently active (not defined here) in either forum should be encouraged to vote. They are the ones whose future is being written. That leaves a final group of posters: those who used to participate, but have chosen to leave and as yet have not come back because they are upset with how they feel they have been treated. With their departure they made a statement that they do not have an interest in participating in the future of the CFC community. They even went so far as to open up a competing site to draw additional players away from CFC. There is a very easy case to be made that they should not have any say in whether or not the two forums are merged. If they want to be influential at CFC, they need to get their asses back here and let everyone benefit from their game playing expertise and experience.

Wow. Just... wow.

My god, some CFC members made a splinter forum to carry on with activities there in such a way that they wouldn't be disrupted or interfered with by CFC moderation rules or specific moderator actions. How dare they! They should obviously be run off the internet entirely. They made an offshoot forum!

I've encountered other forum mods/admins who felt this way on other sites, and the accusations were the same - that the ultimate objective was to compete with and lure people away from the parent forum, and no amount of reasoned, logical explanations would make them understand that while some people intended to leave permanently, most wanted to participate on both sites. I have an account at The Frontier, Birdjaguar. Are you going to tell me to "get my ass back here" so my opinions can be considered valid by you and the other staff?

I think that approach is a bit harsh. By giving such posters a half a vote, we recognize both their long term value to the community, as well as, their decision to leave the community as an act of protest or dissatisfaction. If enough of them come back to vote they could have an impact on the results. If only a few, then not so much. That seems appropriate to me. My goal was to match a posters influence in the poll results to their commitment to the future of the community.

And thus you show the people who feel disrespected that they were justified in feeling that way. In addition you are claiming to be a mind reader, that you know how committed specific people are to the future of CFC. You are either psychic, or you must spend every waking moment checking the "Who's Online" area of the board, to see which, if any, Frontier members are logged on or lurking as a guest.

The reality is that you can guess, but you can't actually know the level of commitment each person has toward this forum. You don't seem to realize that one of the reasons people complain is because they are deeply committed to the forum and are complaining because they perceive a problem that needs to be fixed and are willing to take the time to say so and explain why.

 

[BSmith1068]

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and step back a little bit. Get your emotions in check and then come back and debate the issue at hand, which is simply should the two forums merge or not.

Bottom line here: EQ and I are the moderators for both of these forums. This is our poll and we will make recommendations based on the results as how to move forward. We want this to be as fair and inclusive as possible, and honestly we only have the best interests of the IOT/NES community in mind here, especially with an eye to the future.

The past is in the past. There were, and still are, some issues that have caused high emotions and short tempers. But let's look to how we build a stronger community with mutual respect. My goal is that we have a vibrant community where players of all backgrounds can come together and enjoy playing the games that are creative and enjoyable for the community.

Let's be part of the solution and not a continuation of the past problems.

Moderator Action: From now on, please refrain from the larger discussion about moderation, etc. in this thread. That discussion can continue here. Please keep this thread to the narrow topic on if the two forums should be merged or not. Let's also get away from discussing hypothetical ways votes will be counted. EQ and I will make this as transparent as possible and will communicate our reasoning along with the decision and results of the voting once the vote is complete.

 

[Double A]

I like how there are people who pretty much solely use their CFC accounts to protest a subforum merge on here, which I believe could make this sentence extremely recursive if I so chose.

 

[North King]

Snort.

 

[Azale]

I don't claim to speak for Luckymoose, but honestly, Birdjaguar, how else would you expect me to see your statement that you think some peoples' votes are worth just a fraction of others' votes based on some bizarre criteria you've decided for yourself? Even Lefty doesn't appear to agree with you!

Wow. Just... wow.

My god, some CFC members made a splinter forum to carry on with activities there in such a way that they wouldn't be disrupted or interfered with by CFC moderation rules or specific moderator actions. How dare they! They should obviously be run off the internet entirely. They made an offshoot forum!

I've encountered other forum mods/admins who felt this way on other sites, and the accusations were the same - that the ultimate objective was to compete with and lure people away from the parent forum, and no amount of reasoned, logical explanations would make them understand that while some people intended to leave permanently, most wanted to participate on both sites. I have an account at The Frontier, Birdjaguar. Are you going to tell me to "get my ass back here" so my opinions can be considered valid by you and the other staff?

And thus you show the people who feel disrespected that they were justified in feeling that way. In addition you are claiming to be a mind reader, that you know how committed specific people are to the future of CFC. You are either psychic, or you must spend every waking moment checking the "Who's Online" area of the board, to see which, if any, Frontier members are logged on or lurking as a guest.

The reality is that you can guess, but you can't actually know the level of commitment each person has toward this forum. You don't seem to realize that one of the reasons people complain is because they are deeply committed to the forum and are complaining because they perceive a problem that needs to be fixed and are willing to take the time to say so and explain why.

 

[BSmith1068]

Moderator Action: Please continue that line of discussion in the other thread. EQ and I have made it clear that we value everyone's opinion regarding the merge regardless of history. If you have participated at any time in IOT or NES, then you have the right to make your opinion known.

But again I ask that if you don't intend to be a contributing member of this community here on CFC moving forward that you take the high road and not try to influence something that you have no intention of participating in. (not directed at you Azale, more of a general comment)