New Beta - September 17th (9-17)

[Ziad]

I have to wonder though, are all these changes going to heavily encourage those seeking cultural victories to take artistry?

At present, diplo defaults to statecraft and cultural defaults to artistry while science and domination games can go any of the three.

Is that acceptable? I had thought the intent was to make the medieval trees as neutral as possible with a bonus or two for thematic purposes. Artistry has way too many benefits now to ignore.

I personally don't care either way. Just wondering. Love the new tree.

 

[doublex55]

Yeah, on second thought the tourism on universities probably pushes Artistry over the top if considering a cultural victory.

 

[GodDamnItAlexander]

I have to wonder though, are all these changes going to heavily encourage those seeking cultural victories to take artistry?

At present, diplo defaults to statecraft and cultural defaults to artistry while science and domination games can go any of the three.

Is that acceptable? I had thought the intent was to make the medieval trees as neutral as possible with a bonus or two for thematic purposes. Artistry has way too many benefits now to ignore.

I personally don't care either way. Just wondering. Love the new tree.

The whole "medieval neutral" idea seemed to go in circles right from the start IMO.
Domination -> faith/world congress tree
Science -> faith/tourism tree
Diplomacy ->world congress tree
Culture ->tourism tree

Now you could say in this patch when I say tourism tree I could mean fealty, statecraft or artistry, but lets be honest - which one would you pick if you're going for a cultural victory?

If you want "neutral" medieval trees there can be no "tourism" tree, they all have to be equally viable in terms of tourism.
Of course that leaves thick with a great people generation problem.

Maybe the current medieval trees scheme should be sacked. That is of course if you're seeking neutrality. Now I'm just spitballing, but if I were to make neutral trees I would basically mix them all together. No tree would favor any particular victory type. Every tree would have a little bit of everything, and it's up to the player (and of course AI) to decide which one fits best for his current situation.
For example one tree would give a flat bonus to paper, another would give bonus paper when traded from other civs, last would boost production to diplo units but increase their paper consumption at the same time. All bonuses are inherently blurry and could be useful in multiple situations.

 

[tu_79]

but lets be honest - which one would you pick if you're going for a cultural victory?

Actually there is very little boost to tourism now in the tree, other than the increased GWAM, which can be used to produce more GW, so more tourism, and the hidden archaeological sites, which adds a few artifacts. Statecraft boost tourism a bit further, with a tourism bonus to all civs when a trade route to a CS finishes, and with those extra spies that can be used as diplomats in foreign capitals, boosting tourism too. Piety is clearly worse for tourism, unless you manage to convert to your religion the most resilient civ, and use your religion for boosting tourism (not impossible, but a lot of work). But don't ignore Historical Events. Piety has more chances at achieving them now (more production, more wonders built, more units to win wars).

 

[GodDamnItAlexander]

Actually there is very little boost to tourism now in the tree, other than the increased GWAM, which can be used to produce more GW, so more tourism, and the hidden archaeological sites, which adds a few artifacts. Statecraft boost tourism a bit further, with a tourism bonus to all civs when a trade route to a CS finishes, and with those extra spies that can be used as diplomats in foreign capitals, boosting tourism too. Piety is clearly worse for tourism, unless you manage to convert to your religion the most resilient civ, and use your religion for boosting tourism (not impossible, but a lot of work). But don't ignore Historical Events. Piety has more chances at achieving them now (more production, more wonders built, more units to win wars).

In my recent games on quick emperor the tourism leaders (by far) were all using artistry.

 

[Gazebo]

Actually there is very little boost to tourism now in the tree, other than the increased GWAM, which can be used to produce more GW, so more tourism, and the hidden archaeological sites, which adds a few artifacts. Statecraft boost tourism a bit further, with a tourism bonus to all civs when a trade route to a CS finishes, and with those extra spies that can be used as diplomats in foreign capitals, boosting tourism too. Piety is clearly worse for tourism, unless you manage to convert to your religion the most resilient civ, and use your religion for boosting tourism (not impossible, but a lot of work). But don't ignore Historical Events. Piety has more chances at achieving them now (more production, more wonders built, more units to win wars).

Yep. In terms of pure per turn tourism from policies alone artistry wins, but fealty grants a better bonus from sacred sites reformation (and a better chance to get that reformation early), and statecraft can really snowball with the CS tourism bonus, diplomat spy bonus and TR modifier bonus. Plus if you lead the WC you can pass tourism resolutions and block bad ones.

They really are pretty darn neutral on the whole.

G

 

[Ziad]

Hey Gazebo, I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.

Why is Temple of Artemis the only wonder to provide a building from a previous tech tier?

Presently the only way to mitigate the loss of building a Granary is to focus on expansion and military before building the wonder. However for those who start with Tradition, it can be an annoyance as Granary is somewhat of a priority to support the specialists, especially when you have Wheat/Deer/Bison/Bananas nearby.

It just takes A LOT of time to research a tier 2 technology for a tier 1 building from a tech that isn't even a prerequisite!

Wouldn't it be better for it to provide a free Barracks, at least for consistency with all the other wonders in that era that provide buildings from the same tech/tier? Think of it as training soldiers in the hunt rather than storing meat from said hunts

 

[GodDamnItAlexander]

Yep. In terms of pure per turn tourism from policies alone artistry wins, but fealty grants a better bonus from sacred sites reformation (and a better chance to get that reformation early), and statecraft can really snowball with the CS tourism bonus, diplomat spy bonus and TR modifier bonus. Plus if you lead the WC you can pass tourism resolutions and block bad ones.

They really are pretty darn neutral on the whole.

G

I don't agree. Each tree supports a certain victory type. In my eyes that isn't neutrality. Also like I already said in my games artistry is a tourism monster.
Germany is obviously gonna get statecraft.
Brazil artistry.
Spain fealty.
The synergies are too obvious.

 

[Ziad]

I don't agree. Each tree supports a certain victory type. In my eyes that isn't neutrality. Also like I already said in my games artistry is a tourism monster.
Germany is obviously gonna get statecraft.
Brazil artistry.
Spain fealty.
The synergies are too obvious.

I don't see the problem in certain civs favoring certain trees. That's only natural. Morocco and Carthage for example favor Statecraft and Industry purely because of the additional trade routes interacting with their UA.

That doesn't mean that's the only possible route to their chosen victory type. Germany, while benefiting from the additional trade route from Statecraft for Hanse, can potentially gain more effective yields from Fealty or Artistry since you don't really need Statecraft to maintain state relations (just makes it easier).

I can see the argument for Statecraft being strong for CV, but for Fealty I believe the recent changes have nerfed the bonuses too hard.

@Gazebo I believe that the nerf to Tourism for going wide has indirectly nerfed Sacred Sites, which is arguably Fealty's answer to Tourism. This brings up the topic of certain Reformation beliefs becoming unintentionally weaker over time. Knowledge Through Devotion is another belief that is much weaker than it should be. You need 8 GPTI and 4 GW to match Defender of the Faith's SECONDARY building component with Walls and Castles at Medieval. That's ignoring the primary combat strength boosts.

Knowledge Through Devotion and Sacred Sites could use an additional effect to be consistent with other beliefs.

For Knowledge, someone brought up the idea of purchasing Archeologists with Faith.

For Sacred Sites, perhaps a modifier that increases tourism with other cities based on faith output or something. If that's too difficult, perhaps a static amount to somewhat make up for the recent nerf.

 

[GodDamnItAlexander]

I don't see the problem in certain civs favoring certain trees. That's only natural. Morocco and Carthage for example favor Statecraft and Industry purely because of the additional trade routes interacting with their UA.

That doesn't mean that's the only possible route to their chosen victory type. Germany, while benefiting from the additional trade route from Statecraft for Hanse, can potentially gain more effective yields from Fealty or Artistry since you don't really need Statecraft to maintain state relations (just makes it easier).

I can see the argument for Statecraft being strong for CV, but for Fealty I believe the recent changes have nerfed the bonuses too hard.

@Gazebo I believe that the nerf to Tourism for going wide has indirectly nerfed Sacred Sites, which is arguably Fealty's answer to Tourism. This brings up the topic of certain Reformation beliefs becoming unintentionally weaker over time. Knowledge Through Devotion is another belief that is much weaker than it should be. You need 8 GPTI and 4 GW to match Defender of the Faith's SECONDARY building component with Walls and Castles at Medieval. That's ignoring the primary combat strength boosts.

Knowledge Through Devotion and Sacred Sites could use an additional effect to be consistent with other beliefs.

For Knowledge, someone brought up the idea of purchasing Archeologists with Faith.

For Sacred Sites, perhaps a modifier that increases tourism with other cities based on faith output or something. If that's too difficult, perhaps a static amount to somewhat make up for the recent nerf.

In theory what you're saying is true, in practice I don't think it holds water. From my experience when playing against a high level of AI, you need every bit of help you can get maintaining those alliances. In that sense, every single policy of statecraft benefits germany, not so with fealty.

 

[Ziad]

My point is that the effective yields provided by other trees can eclipse the benefit of maintaining a few additional alliances.

Do remember that you only needs-to be friends with a city state to yield benefits from Germany's UA.

 

[Enginseer]

I don't get why people are still complaining again.

Fealty is not just about getting that good religion up, it's about getting wide infrastructure and wide growth. Something that can snowball you hard out of the game to break the AI's score.
Statescraft is not about just getting alliances, it's about getting F R E E spies and trade routes. A trade route can literally make or break your bank with +60-100 GPT in the late game. More spies means more thieves stealing great works or diplomats stealing more delegation power in the WC.
Artistry is not about getting tourism, it's also about getting more Great People and Great Works. Something that if you have good synergy with your thick empire, you can actually benefit fantastically from expending Great People.

 

[CrazyG]

My point is that the effective yields provided by other trees can eclipse the benefit of maintaining a few additional alliances.

Do remember that you only needs-to be friends with a city state to yield benefits from Germany's UA.

You only get 1/3 of the bonus if you are friends instead of allies. Statecraft also now has an extra trade route, which is another 5% production in all cities for Germany

I think other diplomatic civs can make a solid case for another policy tree, but for Germany its an easy Statecraft.

 

[Bromar1]

You only get 1/3 of the bonus if you are friends instead of allies. Statecraft also now has an extra trade route, which is another 5% production in all cities for Germany

I think other diplomatic civs can make a solid case for another policy tree, but for Germany its an easy Statecraft.

Yeah, I could see some diplomatic civs forgoing Statecraft. For example, Siam has excellent synergy with fealty with their Wat. Any trade route focused UA will heavily want to lean toward Statecraft though

 

[Gazebo]

You only get 1/3 of the bonus if you are friends instead of allies. Statecraft also now has an extra trade route, which is another 5% production in all cities for Germany

I think other diplomatic civs can make a solid case for another policy tree, but for Germany its an easy Statecraft.

And that's fine. I don't think it breaks the balance to have a few no-brainer civ-policy connections.

G

 

[Ziad]

You only get 1/3 of the bonus if you are friends instead of allies. Statecraft also now has an extra trade route, which is another 5% production in all cities for Germany

I think other diplomatic civs can make a solid case for another policy tree, but for Germany its an easy Statecraft.

I mean you get a production bonus from fealty that's worth 3 trade routes. You also get monastery science which can potentially provide more effective science than a couple of additional alliances for a while. It's not one dimensional.

Anyway I'm not arguing that Statecraft is bad. If you going for a diplomatic victory, it's obviously the best and then some for Germany.

It's just that you can make an argument for choosing what rounds out your civ and makes up for your weaknesses when pursuing other victory types

For example, one look at Greece's UA and you think Statecraft since you can maintain alliances even more easily, but you can also think of it as your UA filling in for Statecraft if you go Artistry when going for a CV

In the case of Germany, you can forgo Statecraft if you going for a domination victory and then take ideologies to make up for it in the late game where Germany shines. Tyranny comes to mind.

It's not always about direct and immediate synergy. Thats my argument.

I play Germany thick so I find Progress into Artistry more effective for my strategy. If going tall, UA matters more so Statecraft is obviously the best. I'm sure others can make more arguments for the three branches. That's great!

 

[crushboss]

I'm thankful that Vox Populi is still being actively developed by competent devs. If I disagree with something I change it myself. Too many disagreements/complaints instead of appreciation out there.

 

[GodDamnItAlexander]

I don't get why people are still complaining again.

Fealty is not just about getting that good religion up, it's about getting wide infrastructure and wide growth. Something that can snowball you hard out of the game to break the AI's score.
Statescraft is not about just getting alliances, it's about getting F R E E spies and trade routes. A trade route can literally make or break your bank with +60-100 GPT in the late game. More spies means more thieves stealing great works or diplomats stealing more delegation power in the WC.
Artistry is not about getting tourism, it's also about getting more Great People and Great Works. Something that if you have good synergy with your thick empire, you can actually benefit fantastically from expending Great People.

Great in theory, awful in practice (from my experience playing quick emperor). Maybe that's just a symptom of not balancing with quick in mind.

 

[randomnub]

A quality of life request for Progress opener: if possible, make so the free science you get upon aquisition of the policy (20 x citizen already present in capital) also nets the 15 bonus culture should it be enough to unlock a technology; 40-80 science at this stage is usually enough to finish a tech, but since it doesn't trigger the second opener bonus it makes so for a human player is always worthwile to swap research just before taking Progress.

Should it not be possible due to how science/culture get awarded, make it so that opener also awards 15(?) bonus culture for techs you already researched, similar to how the science annoyance was dealt in past due to capital growing too quick/having to micro citizens. Now I'm microing techs.

 

[tu_79]

I'm thankful that Vox Populi is still being actively developed by competent devs. If I disagree with something I change it myself. Too many disagreements/complaints instead of appreciation out there.

Ho, ho, don't worry. We all love to discuss things, make cases and thinking we are right. But at the end of the day, we politelly agree or disagree, no harm is done, and the game keeps improving. The main source of disagreement is differences in play style. Some people like to play a slow pace in big maps full of combat, others like a flashing game to the rocket without any fighting. The same policy, tech or unique ability works very differently depending on playstyle, so what works well for some players is boring or imbalanced for others.

Yes, you can change what doesn't work for you (if you know how), but I feel it helps more the project to state what your problem is and discuss how it can be helped. That'll make the game better for more different players in the long run. As long as everything is discussed in a civilized manner (informed complaints are fair, rude behaviour is not).

A quality of life request for Progress opener: if possible, make so the free science you get upon aquisition of the policy (20 x citizen already present in capital) also nets the 15 bonus culture should it be enough to unlock a technology; 40-80 science at this stage is usually enough to finish a tech, but since it doesn't trigger the second opener bonus it makes so for a human player is always worthwile to swap research just before taking Progress.

Should it not be possible due to how science/culture get awarded, make it so that opener also awards 15(?) bonus culture for techs you already researched, similar to how the science annoyance was dealt in past due to capital growing too quick/having to micro citizens. Now I'm microing techs.

Does it really pay off, to delay your ancient techs in order to get a bit more culture?