flyingchicken
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2007
- Messages
- 3,783
New NESes, ideas, development, etc
- Thread starter das
- Start date
Abaddon
Deity
Seriously, you are much better off starting your own thread..
Also, above post doesnt really mention the meat of the issue. The issue is "resolving battles"
Also, above post doesnt really mention the meat of the issue. The issue is "resolving battles"
PeteAtoms
FormulaRandom
Abaddon we have many approaches already from arbitrariness (informed or otherwise), dice rolls (with varying degrees of arbitrariness, informed or otherwise), Dupuy's thing (Symphony D. removed the scans though), and then GURPS's thing (as I linked somewhere).
I believe this is the GURPS thing you are referring to:
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Roleplayer/Roleplayer30/MassCombat-Land.html
Kraznaya
Princeps
Version without my name preceding each line
[00:01] <fc> you seem to be sensible person so I must ask you why you seem to not be when it comes to those in FANES
[00:01] <Kraznaya> trade agreements are stupid thats why
[00:01] <fc> "trade agreements" are meaningless most of the time because details on trade policies are not usually expanded on by the mod
[00:01] <Kraznaya> regional trade should be automatic unless you specifically move to cloes it off
[00:02] <fc> well it is not a binary thing which is why trade agreements exist in the first place
[00:02] <fc> you don't have "closed trade" / "open trade" but a nuanced thing with tariffs and monopolies and stuff
[00:03] <fc> historically for example, a complete free trade agreement between the philippines and america led to overspecialization/lack of diversification in philippine production
[00:04] <fc> competing farmers in the US didn't like that
[00:04] <fc> wait wat was my point
[00:04] <Kraznaya> see the problem with neses is
[00:04] <Kraznaya> trade agreements = if you don't sign one there is NO TRADE
[00:04] <Kraznaya> and if you do, they pump your economy a bit
[00:04] <fc> well for stupid mods
[00:04] <Kraznaya> it's just oversimplified and stupid
[00:05] <fc> let us discuss this problem pleas
[00:05] <fc> with the experienced and knowledgeable AZALE as our guide
[00:06] <fc> so that we may write a treatise and post it
[00:06] <fc> it will improve NEsing quite a bit
[00:06] <Kraznaya> ok so what do you propose
[00:06] <fc> if people understood what trade agreements are all about
[00:06] <fc> well i don't know jack except for generalized and probably wrong basics
[00:06] <fc> so let us begin with basic historical examples
[00:07] <fc> why do countries impose tariffs?
[00:07] <fc> to protect local industries and generate revenue, but what is the macroeconomic effect of tariffs?
[00:08] <fc> what happens when there is absolute free trade between a massive producer and a minor producer
[00:08] <fc> surely there will be that... thing... relative... something
[00:08] <azale> YO
[00:08] <azale> whats the current topic of discussion?
[00:08] <fc> like when a lawyer is a better plumber than the plumber but the lawyer lawyers anyway because he is a way better lawyer than the plumber
[00:09] <fc> how to improve nesers' conception of "trade agreements"
[00:09] <fc> i began with asking "why do countries impose tariffs"
[00:09] <fc> then "to protect local industries and generate revenue perhaps, but what is the macroeconomic effect of tariffs?
[00:10] <fc> i am pulling this out of high school and a very light skim of the first chapter of an economics textbook
[00:10] <azale> lol
[00:10] <azale> basically
[00:10] <fc> but anyway even a piecemeal understanding of basic basic economics will greatly improve the immersion when people aren't asking "TO WHOEVER FROM WHATEVER TRADE?" all the time
[00:10] <azale> its a +1 to postcounts
[00:10] <azale> we need a basic trade stat
[00:11] <azale> that measures the health of a nations trade "account" with the countries of the world
[00:11] <azale> err, im using naiton and country interchangeably when i should really just use state
[00:11] <azale> this stat could be vague and all encompassing, so no need to add every country in there
[00:11] <fc> "trade agreements" exist only to restrict or loosen trade correct?
[00:11] <Kraznaya> how would that show adverse affects to internal industry and such thoguh
[00:12] <Kraznaya> unless you announce embargoes
[00:12] <azale> france's trade relations with italy can be inferred from past actions, mod knowledge, side notes, without it needing to be explicitly expressed in a stat
[00:12] <azale> correct fc
[00:12] <azale> trade agreements dont really...ENFORCE trade
[00:12] <fc> in my philippines example we lost incentive to develop other industries because we focused on agriculture
[00:12] <azale> i mean, marco polo went to china not as an ambassador of venice
[00:13] <azale> but of his own volition
[00:13] <azale> america focused on agriculture and industry and managed to pull in alot of trade
[00:13] <azale> it really depends on the capital/money/population available
[00:13] <fc> so what kind of industries develop within a country should be influenced by (1) existing resources and (2) relative profitability of developing each resource
[00:14] <fc> and (2) is affected by trade agreements?
[00:14] <fc> "resource"
[00:14] <Kraznaya> what led to the development of american industry in the early 19th century was a series of embargoes that cut off european manufcatured goods
[00:14] <fc> environmental factors, manpower amount, manpower skill = "resource" in my question
[00:15] <fc> (2) would also be affected by internal policies on economy of course?
[00:15] <azale> yes
[00:15] <azale> nuturing early american industry from big bad developed british
[00:15] <azale> who was the workhouse of the world
[00:15] <fc> hmmm i am thinking we need MAPS to show these "resources" at least the natural ones
[00:15] <azale> yes fc
[00:16] <Kraznaya> you just ratcheted up the complexity scale another notch thoguh
[00:16] <azale> yea
[00:16] <fc> the map will be there to help mods make arbitrary decisions
[00:16] <fc> replacing completely aritrary decisions with nuanced arbitrary decisions
[00:16] <fc> anyway i have this map fetish
[00:17] <fc> anyway again a transcript of this conversation must surely be helpful to many starting mods
[00:18] <azale> lol until some know-it-all rips it apart
[00:18] <Kraznaya> not necessarily, it's just yet another complexity factor
[00:18] <azale> then rewrites a 500 page dissertation on how we are wrong
[00:18] <azale> perhaps kraz
[00:18] <azale> or perhaps not
[00:18] <azale> another laternative is
[00:18] <fc> well our understanding is better than the current "trade agreement = trade enforcement" mentality
[00:18] <azale> alternative is*
[00:18] <azale> mod knowledge
[00:19] <azale> + player responsibility in supplementing this knowledge
[00:19] <fc> that is the ideal azale
[00:19] <fc> don't bet on it
[00:19] <azale> well, then the nes wont be successful either way
[00:19] <azale> without mod knowledge
[00:19] <azale> and a player wont be successful unless he vouches for himself and puts some effort into his role
[00:19] <Kraznaya> although as a mod it would be fun to make poorly thought out trade agreements hamper state economies
[00:20] <fc> well to improve the general state of casual neses azale
[00:20] <fc> we will need to supply basic basic information
[00:20] <azale> you could just ban spammy things like that
[00:20] <fc> that is easily visible and accessible
[00:20] <Kraznaya> what is a casual nes
[00:20] <azale> perhaps
[00:20] <azale> i bet there are plenty of maps that show world resources
[00:20] <fc> kraznaya that is a great idea since you as a mod will have to make up what "trade agreement" means
[00:20] <azale> you could link to these for any world nes
[00:21] <fc> azale it is more difficult than you think
[00:21] <azale> well, i know to me, i basically ignored whenever someone signed a "trade agreement"
[00:21] <fc> or i haven't been searching well enough
[00:21] <azale> you sure?
[00:21] <Kraznaya> If you just made trade agreements a relaxation of trade barriers you can think of all kinds of adverse affects
[00:01] <fc> you seem to be sensible person so I must ask you why you seem to not be when it comes to those in FANES
[00:01] <Kraznaya> trade agreements are stupid thats why
[00:01] <fc> "trade agreements" are meaningless most of the time because details on trade policies are not usually expanded on by the mod
[00:01] <Kraznaya> regional trade should be automatic unless you specifically move to cloes it off
[00:02] <fc> well it is not a binary thing which is why trade agreements exist in the first place
[00:02] <fc> you don't have "closed trade" / "open trade" but a nuanced thing with tariffs and monopolies and stuff
[00:03] <fc> historically for example, a complete free trade agreement between the philippines and america led to overspecialization/lack of diversification in philippine production
[00:04] <fc> competing farmers in the US didn't like that
[00:04] <fc> wait wat was my point
[00:04] <Kraznaya> see the problem with neses is
[00:04] <Kraznaya> trade agreements = if you don't sign one there is NO TRADE
[00:04] <Kraznaya> and if you do, they pump your economy a bit
[00:04] <fc> well for stupid mods
[00:04] <Kraznaya> it's just oversimplified and stupid
[00:05] <fc> let us discuss this problem pleas
[00:05] <fc> with the experienced and knowledgeable AZALE as our guide
[00:06] <fc> so that we may write a treatise and post it
[00:06] <fc> it will improve NEsing quite a bit
[00:06] <Kraznaya> ok so what do you propose
[00:06] <fc> if people understood what trade agreements are all about
[00:06] <fc> well i don't know jack except for generalized and probably wrong basics
[00:06] <fc> so let us begin with basic historical examples
[00:07] <fc> why do countries impose tariffs?
[00:07] <fc> to protect local industries and generate revenue, but what is the macroeconomic effect of tariffs?
[00:08] <fc> what happens when there is absolute free trade between a massive producer and a minor producer
[00:08] <fc> surely there will be that... thing... relative... something
[00:08] <azale> YO
[00:08] <azale> whats the current topic of discussion?
[00:08] <fc> like when a lawyer is a better plumber than the plumber but the lawyer lawyers anyway because he is a way better lawyer than the plumber
[00:09] <fc> how to improve nesers' conception of "trade agreements"
[00:09] <fc> i began with asking "why do countries impose tariffs"
[00:09] <fc> then "to protect local industries and generate revenue perhaps, but what is the macroeconomic effect of tariffs?
[00:10] <fc> i am pulling this out of high school and a very light skim of the first chapter of an economics textbook
[00:10] <azale> lol
[00:10] <azale> basically
[00:10] <fc> but anyway even a piecemeal understanding of basic basic economics will greatly improve the immersion when people aren't asking "TO WHOEVER FROM WHATEVER TRADE?" all the time
[00:10] <azale> its a +1 to postcounts
[00:10] <azale> we need a basic trade stat
[00:11] <azale> that measures the health of a nations trade "account" with the countries of the world
[00:11] <azale> err, im using naiton and country interchangeably when i should really just use state
[00:11] <azale> this stat could be vague and all encompassing, so no need to add every country in there
[00:11] <fc> "trade agreements" exist only to restrict or loosen trade correct?
[00:11] <Kraznaya> how would that show adverse affects to internal industry and such thoguh
[00:12] <Kraznaya> unless you announce embargoes
[00:12] <azale> france's trade relations with italy can be inferred from past actions, mod knowledge, side notes, without it needing to be explicitly expressed in a stat
[00:12] <azale> correct fc
[00:12] <azale> trade agreements dont really...ENFORCE trade
[00:12] <fc> in my philippines example we lost incentive to develop other industries because we focused on agriculture
[00:12] <azale> i mean, marco polo went to china not as an ambassador of venice
[00:13] <azale> but of his own volition
[00:13] <azale> america focused on agriculture and industry and managed to pull in alot of trade
[00:13] <azale> it really depends on the capital/money/population available
[00:13] <fc> so what kind of industries develop within a country should be influenced by (1) existing resources and (2) relative profitability of developing each resource
[00:14] <fc> and (2) is affected by trade agreements?
[00:14] <fc> "resource"
[00:14] <Kraznaya> what led to the development of american industry in the early 19th century was a series of embargoes that cut off european manufcatured goods
[00:14] <fc> environmental factors, manpower amount, manpower skill = "resource" in my question
[00:15] <fc> (2) would also be affected by internal policies on economy of course?
[00:15] <azale> yes
[00:15] <azale> nuturing early american industry from big bad developed british
[00:15] <azale> who was the workhouse of the world
[00:15] <fc> hmmm i am thinking we need MAPS to show these "resources" at least the natural ones
[00:15] <azale> yes fc
[00:16] <Kraznaya> you just ratcheted up the complexity scale another notch thoguh
[00:16] <azale> yea
[00:16] <fc> the map will be there to help mods make arbitrary decisions
[00:16] <fc> replacing completely aritrary decisions with nuanced arbitrary decisions
[00:16] <fc> anyway i have this map fetish
[00:17] <fc> anyway again a transcript of this conversation must surely be helpful to many starting mods
[00:18] <azale> lol until some know-it-all rips it apart
[00:18] <Kraznaya> not necessarily, it's just yet another complexity factor
[00:18] <azale> then rewrites a 500 page dissertation on how we are wrong
[00:18] <azale> perhaps kraz
[00:18] <azale> or perhaps not
[00:18] <azale> another laternative is
[00:18] <fc> well our understanding is better than the current "trade agreement = trade enforcement" mentality
[00:18] <azale> alternative is*
[00:18] <azale> mod knowledge
[00:19] <azale> + player responsibility in supplementing this knowledge
[00:19] <fc> that is the ideal azale
[00:19] <fc> don't bet on it
[00:19] <azale> well, then the nes wont be successful either way
[00:19] <azale> without mod knowledge
[00:19] <azale> and a player wont be successful unless he vouches for himself and puts some effort into his role
[00:19] <Kraznaya> although as a mod it would be fun to make poorly thought out trade agreements hamper state economies
[00:20] <fc> well to improve the general state of casual neses azale
[00:20] <fc> we will need to supply basic basic information
[00:20] <azale> you could just ban spammy things like that
[00:20] <fc> that is easily visible and accessible
[00:20] <Kraznaya> what is a casual nes
[00:20] <azale> perhaps
[00:20] <azale> i bet there are plenty of maps that show world resources
[00:20] <fc> kraznaya that is a great idea since you as a mod will have to make up what "trade agreement" means
[00:20] <azale> you could link to these for any world nes
[00:21] <fc> azale it is more difficult than you think
[00:21] <azale> well, i know to me, i basically ignored whenever someone signed a "trade agreement"
[00:21] <fc> or i haven't been searching well enough
[00:21] <azale> you sure?
[00:21] <Kraznaya> If you just made trade agreements a relaxation of trade barriers you can think of all kinds of adverse affects
Measuring whether a state is a net importer or exporter of goods and services as opposed to capital might seem like a good idea, but is it necessary? The idea is to simulate the economy, not to reproduce it in full, and adding yet another stat for the mod to keep track of seems like a helluva lot of work. Keeping track of such an event in a separate stat for every country in the world could get tiring.
For what it's worth, tariffs are generally used to, as said, bring in revenue for the government (sometimes negligible impact), improve the position of domestic producers as opposed to foreign ones, and bring the price closer to the equilibrium price without trade. As such it also increases the cost for a consumer, and like any tax causes a deadweight loss of some amount. Basic stuff, not much different from what y'all said.
For what it's worth, tariffs are generally used to, as said, bring in revenue for the government (sometimes negligible impact), improve the position of domestic producers as opposed to foreign ones, and bring the price closer to the equilibrium price without trade. As such it also increases the cost for a consumer, and like any tax causes a deadweight loss of some amount. Basic stuff, not much different from what y'all said.
Yea, I pointed this out. It's mainly the frustration in spammy "TRADE 'GREEMENT PLOX?" nonsense that clutters the beginning of every NES. I think you can place a vague, low maintenance trade stat and keep BirdJaguar on speed dial to remove spammy posts to alleviate the problem.
I'm taking economics in the fall, gotta begin brushing up I guess.
Kraznaya
Princeps
Spoiler :
Hai guise. This is a map of the world at 1000 AD, or at least it tries to be. I have been working on this for the last day due to procrastination on other things and simple boredom. Dachs has helped me lots in various places and I now ask the same of you: to correct inaccuracies in your areas of expertise. If you want to help, save the map and correct it with your own program. This is much easier and simpler than giving vague text instructions and expecting them to be met as they are in your mind.
Cities are not of high priority thus far, and thus there are a few capitals scattered here or there but it is mostly maddeningly inconsistent. Correcting capital locations would be appreciated as well.
Obviously, the Americas and most of Africa is empty. This is mostly because no one cares about them, but also because I don't have sources. Fill it in if you wish.
And yes, this may become a NES one day, if the stars align. The stars don't align too often though
Nylan
Characters Welcome
Well at first glance, some of the borders are a little too...straight. I'll take a closer look later.
Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
- Messages
- 7,623
Brain-storming a new NES based on the my earlier FFHNESII.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/group.php?groupid=72
http://forums.civfanatics.com/group.php?groupid=72
Nylan
Characters Welcome
Here's an updated version of Kraznaya's map with the Welsh Kingdoms:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4889/krazmap.png
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4889/krazmap.png
Update on my 40k game:
My master of the maps has just given me the finished copy of the map. Now I just need to obtain the software I need to divide it into regions.
This week was my move to South Korea, so I'm going to spend a lot of time this weekend tentatively exploring my city and learning Korean.
Despite that, I expect to have the thread up and ready for signups sometime this weekend.
My master of the maps has just given me the finished copy of the map. Now I just need to obtain the software I need to divide it into regions.
This week was my move to South Korea, so I'm going to spend a lot of time this weekend tentatively exploring my city and learning Korean.
Despite that, I expect to have the thread up and ready for signups sometime this weekend.
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
My dumbness overwhelms as I go thinking that maybe "standard parallel" and "prime meridian" were interchangeable when they clearly aren't!
So, anyone here who actually knows the prime meridian of the winkie-trippy maps?
Do you mean the longitude that it's centered on? Because that varies. The Prime Meridian is 0. Symphony's is centered on something like 8 degrees east.
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
I would play around with it, unless you're trying to exactly match Symphony's maps. In which case... I can't really help you.
Does it matter? I always assumed Prime Meridian to be 0. If you want to draw it, I think Wikipedia would provide the Winkel-Trippel formula so you can draw your line based on that formula.
In other news, I'm learning a new programming language - probably for a NES.
In other news, I'm learning a new programming language - probably for a NES.
Hey, don't blame me for not correcting your poor terminology about stuff that I don't know very well.
Milarqui
Deity
Considering the poor following of my last attempt to Mod a Fresh-Start game (MilarNES II), I think it's time I drop that. However, I have been told that some people would like to see Jason The King's Superpower NES back into the fold, so maybe I could be up to the challenge and work on that NES and bring it back to life once more.
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