NSA spying - When is the line crossed?

[bhsup]

First off, let me say up front in general I have no issue with the practice of spying on foreign nationals, even those in allied countries, if it is deemed necessary. However, I do think there are lines that should not be crossed. Well apparently, the NSA pole-vaulted over that line to set a new world record. Spying on the head of state of a close ally is, imho, out of bounds. The NSA would seem to disagree as they apparently listened in on German Chancellor Angela Merkel's cell phone conversations.

So where should the line be drawn when it comes to foreign nationals? I really don't have a clear answer beyond "before we get to the bleepin' head of state!"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24651975 (I hope a BBC link is non-controversial enough)

Germany has summoned the US ambassador in Berlin over claims that the US monitored German Chancellor Angela Merkel's mobile phone.

Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle will meet US envoy John Emerson later in what is seen as an unusual step between close allies.

Mrs Merkel has demanded a "complete explanation" of the claims, which are threatening to overshadow an EU summit.

She discussed the issue with US President Barack Obama on Wednesday.

President Obama told Mrs Merkel the US was not monitoring her calls and would not in future, the White House said.

However, it left open the question of whether calls had been listened to in the past.

 

[Arwon]

You know when the US wants to spy on Americans they just get the Brits/Canadian/Australian/New Zealand intelligence services to do it and then share notes, right?

So I wouldn't worry about the US spying on American nationals!

 

[Traitorfish]

Given that the US funded neo-fascist paramilitaries in Western Europe for about forty years, this isn't nearly the worst thing you guys have done to your allies.

 

[bhsup]

hey I'm cool with that as long as it stays in the Anglosphere family. I don't trust the Frenchies. That said, I fear this thread may be going down the wrong path, so editing it to RED DIAMOND STATUS! Yes, unless you all want to discuss where the line should be drawn in NSA spying, get out.

 

[The_J]

If it's my intelligence agency, then spying on another states head is totally valid. It's a high profile target, so you should, if you can, and if it will give you more valuable information than what might be the danger of having it revealed. (I doubt though that this applies here)
If it's another intelligence agency spying on my head of state, then it's IMHO a good reason for a war declaration (which also due to other arguments doesn't apply here). All other things are more a reason for either an extreme diplomatic cooldown, which might or might not be connected to requests of changing the practices (which totally applies, but hasn't happened yet).

 

[CavLancer]

Not a single successful terrorist attack on US soil by the Germans. I say that's a record the NSA can be proud of! But of course it crossed the line because the NSA was caught, and caught publicly by a whistle blower. If they had been caught by the Germans they likely would not have said anything because they don't want to look like hypocrites if they themselves ever get caught. I wonder what the Germans are spying on? I'll bet the German spy agency is green with envy at US capabilities.

The real question is when is it too far for each of us. For me its when the information gained is used against someone innocent, as in abuse of power. Or, for personal gain. Lets say Merkel had told someone on her cell phone that Germany was going to purchase 300 F-18s, or whatever. If whoever hears that takes all his $ and buys stock in the manufacturer, that's too far. The purpose should be saving American lives and the lives of our allies citizens.

 

[Camikaze]

hey I'm cool with that as long as it stays in the Anglosphere family. I don't trust the Frenchies. That said, I fear this thread may be going down the wrong path, so editing it to RED DIAMOND STATUS! Yes, unless you all want to discuss where the line should be drawn in NSA spying, get out.

Moderator Action: RDs are only for the Chamber. You can have the thread moved there if you like.

 

[bhsup]

Nope, nevermind. I thought you guys were implementing them in here. I have no interest in having to go to the Chamber for my thread.

 

[Perfection]

The line must be drawn here this far and no farther.

 

[Defiant47]

When you get caught. It is poor form to get caught spying on allies. This incident may have undoubtedly upset our allies.

What I mean by this is that when you're engaging in ally espionage, you should limit yourself to low-risk information-gathering.

The line must be drawn here this far and no farther.

You're missing punctuation.

 

[Tahuti]

First off, let me say up front in general I have no issue with the practice of spying on foreign nationals, even those in allied countries, if it is deemed necessary. However, I do think there are lines that should not be crossed. Well apparently, the NSA pole-vaulted over that line to set a new world record. Spying on the head of state of a close ally is, imho, out of bounds.

So I should become Dutch prime minister in order to be not-spied upon?

 

[tokala]

So I should become Dutch prime minister in order to be not-spied upon?

Yepp.

Mrs. Merkel and her cabinet were totally fine with the NSA spying on Germans, any Germans.
Their public stance on the NSA leaks were "nothing to see here, move along citizen".

Well, apparently any Germans but them

 

[Kozmos]

So I should become Dutch prime minister in order to be not-spied upon?

By then you are spied upon by journalists and tabloids. Privacy is a bad joke.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Not a single successful terrorist attack on US soil by the Germans. I say that's a record the NSA can be proud of! But of course it crossed the line because the NSA was caught, and caught publicly by a whistle blower. If they had been caught by the Germans they likely would not have said anything because they don't want to look like hypocrites if they themselves ever get caught. I wonder what the Germans are spying on? I'll bet the German spy agency is green with envy at US capabilities.

The real question is when is it too far for each of us. For me its when the information gained is used against someone innocent, as in abuse of power. Or, for personal gain. Lets say Merkel had told someone on her cell phone that Germany was going to purchase 300 F-18s, or whatever. If whoever hears that takes all his $ and buys stock in the manufacturer, that's too far. The purpose should be saving American lives and the lives of our allies citizens.

http://www.zerohedge.com/contribute...-espionage-france-mexico-brazil-china-and-all

The journalist, who has spent much of his life investigating Echelon, has offered two alleged instances of US snooping in the 1990s, which he says followed the newly-elected Clinton administration's policy of "aggressive advocacy" for US firms bidding for foreign contracts.


James Woolsey: No apology for industrial espionage

The first came from a Baltimore Sun report which said the European consortium Airbus lost a $6bn contract with Saudi Arabia after NSA found Airbus officials were offering kickbacks to a Saudi official.

The paper said the agency "lifted all the faxes and phone-calls between Airbus, the Saudi national airline and the Saudi Government" to gain this information.

Mr Campbell also alleges that the US firm Raytheon used information picked up from NSA snooping to secure a $1.4bn contract to supply a radar system to Brazil instead of France's Thomson-CSF.

Frank admission

The US strenuously denies passing on commercial information to individual US firms, saying that there are clear laws to prevent it.

But former CIA director James Woolsey, in an article in March for the Wall Street Journal, acknowledged that the US did conduct economic espionage against its European allies, though he did not specify if Echelon was involved.

However, he poured scorn on the Campbell allegations that the US was using its technological edge to gain unfair advantage in international business.

"We have spied on you because you bribe," the ex-CIA boss wrote.

Spying on allies for economic advantage is a crucial new assignment for the C.I.A. now that American foreign policy is focused on commercial interests abroad. President Clinton made economic intelligence a high priority of his Administration, specifically information to protect and defend American competitiveness, technology and financial security in a world where an economic crisis can spread across global markets in minutes.

All that was nearly 20 years ago.
Trading on inside information is so routine these days it is barely worth mentioning.
We stopped jailing bankers 5 years ago.



Our last Treasury Secretary probably got his promotion being a mole for the big banks.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/19/us-usa-fed-geithner-idUSBRE90I04220130119

In the summer of 2007, as storm clouds gathered over the world's financial system, then-New York Federal Reserve President Timothy Geithner allegedly informed the Bank of America and other banks about the possibility the U.S. central bank would lower one of its critical interest rates, according to a senior Fed official...

...Information about any planned interest rate move by the Fed is among the most sensitive as it can have a huge impact on a range of financial markets worldwide. That was particularly the case in the summer of 2007 when there were growing concerns about financial stability as a crisis that would reach fever pitch just more than a year later began to build.

Private disclosure of confidential, market-sensitive information by the central bank would be highly unusual, but it was not immediately clear if it would be illegal. It also was not clear if strict Fed internal rules governing confidential information would have been breached, or whether any internal or external investigation was mounted. Lacker made no suggestion of wrongdoing by the banks as a result of getting hold of any information.

The central bank delivered a surprise cut in the discount rate, which governs direct loans it makes to banks, the day after the call. The action spurred a big stock market rally, with the Standard & Poor's 500 Index enjoying its best gain in 4-1/2 years.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-01-18/did-tim-geithner-leak-every-fed-announcement-banks

MR. LACKER. If I could just follow up on that, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIRMAN BERNANKE. Yes, go ahead.

MR. LACKER. Vice Chairman Geithner, did you say that [the banks] are unaware of what we’re considering or what we might be doing with the discount rate?

VICE CHAIRMAN GEITHNER. Yes.

MR. LACKER. Vice Chairman Geithner, I spoke with Ken Lewis, President and CEO of Bank of America, this afternoon, and he said that he appreciated what Tim Geithner was arranging by way of changes in the discount facility. So my information is different from that.

CHAIRMAN BERNANKE. Okay. Thank you. Go ahead, Vice Chairman Geithner.

VICE CHAIRMAN GEITHNER. Well, I cannot speak for Ken Lewis, but I think they have sought to see whether they could understand a little more clearly the scope of their rights and our current policy with respect to the window. The only thing I’ve done is to try to help them understand—and I’m sure that’s been true across the System—what the scope of that is because these people generally don’t use the window and they don’t really understand in some sense what it’s about.

Looks like the current head of the NSA Keith Alexander is retiring in the Spring to spend more time with his family.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/16/nsa-director-keith-alexander-depart

While both men are leaving voluntarily, the dual vacancies give Obama an opportunity both to install new leadership following Snowden's revelations and to decide whether the NSA and Cyber Command should have separate leaders.

That's a good question.
Are there conflicts of interest in having the same guy run NSA and Cyber Command?

 

[Winner]

For starters, Germany should grant Snowden asylum. Step two, no data sharing with the US. They spy on us anyway, so let's not give them anything for free. Step three, close down US bases and other military facilities in Europe which are being used for spying against European citizens. Step four, penalize heavily any and all European companies complicit in US spying on European citizens; ban any such American company from doing business in the EU.

If they persist in these illegal activities, further sanctions should be imposed.

The line must be drawn here this far and no farther.

And we should make them pay for what they've done.

 

[Formaldehyde]

How is Angela Merkel not a foreign national? Why does she get a free pass when no other German apparently does?

 

[Joecoolyo]

For starters, Germany should grant Snowden asylum. Step two, no data sharing with the US. They spy on us anyway, so let's not give them anything for free. Step three, close down US bases and other military facilities in Europe which are being used for spying against European citizens. Step four, penalize heavily any and all European companies complicit in US spying on European citizens; ban any such American company from doing business in the EU.

Phase 1 of controlled EU destruction complete.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Perhaps I am not quit as brisk as Winner, but this

Mrs. Merkel and her cabinet were totally fine with the NSA spying on Germans, any Germans.
Their public stance on the NSA leaks were "nothing to see here, move along citizen".

is the truth and it annoyed me greatly. Hence, I welcome this new revelation with open arms, hoping that our government finally discovers some dignity and does its job and doesn't bow to the Americans like the sissy lapdog it acts like.
To not spy on allies is about fairness and respect, about good will.
But from all I have heard it is not just governments spied on, also economic espionage is supposed to have taken place.
In any case what seems crystal clear at this point - it is not just about the terrorists. This scapegoat finally has to stand for more than it could in the most militant American minds.

 

[strijder20]

Phase 1 of controlled EU destruction complete.

He's right that there should be done something. I don't want to be spied on by anyone, nevermind if they are Americans or Europeans.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Haha, you think there's a line.

Buckle up baby.