ST2 - Prussian Pangaea

:mad: The forum just ate my post...

Nice turns Hotrod. I see it and will try to play tonight.

Re: the AI getting techs without having any money... I too was annoyed with this, but then I realized that perhaps it might have something to do with how the game cycles through build orders, etc. Suppose that it is the end of an AIs 20-turn deal with another AI. When you go to make an offer, it appears like they have no gold on hand and no gpt available, even though their deal expires this turn. When the game interface finally moves to that particular AI, it discovers that it has that much more gpt available and then uses it to either up its research rate, or purchase a tech from another AI. So, when you check that AI next turn, you still find that the AI has 0 gpt available, but now they have a new tech. It could also be as CF mentioned (ie, that they researched a tech for themselves and then traded for other techs...) So what do you guys think?

JMB
 
JMB's certainly correct. In addition to freed-up gold/turn, an AI can have a resource deal run out or hook up a new source of one and trade that away. It could also sell a tech to someone else for cash-on-hand and use that cash to buy in to a new tech. There's plenty of ways AIs can acquire techs without the player getting to jump into the loop.
 
I just had a look at the save, we did :goodjob: on the landgrab, but now while we are building up our economy lets not forget about security. We are a bit thin on military, even for a builder -phase. Call me paranoid but I have been attacked more than one time in similar situations.
 
I did manage to build a few spears out of Berlin and iron will be online shortly. All the AI have some :( so we should just use it to get some pikes. I tried to push a few more workers out and Frankfurt was getting a worker every 2 turns.
 
0 - Swap Stuttgart from spearman (the city doesn't have a barracks) to harbor. Everything else looks good. IBT, the barb horseman outside of Nuremburg impales himself on our spearman. The English are trying to send a warrior-settler pair through our lands... Palace expansion (we get a lawn, some steps, and a throne room). The Persians begin Cop's.

1 - MMOW. Iron is hooked up. Berlin completes its temple and begins a pikeman. Frankfurt begins a marketplace.

2 - Hamburg completes it's library and begins an aqueduct. IBT, the English begin Cop's, and the French Bach's.

3- We hook up our second source of furs. Since we really weren't having happiness problems earlier, I trade them away to England for her wm, 5 gpt, and 6 gold. IBT, the French complete Cop's. A barb impales himself on our spearman in Nuremburg. The English begin Bach's.

4 - Not much. IBT, the Persians begin Bach's.

5 - Not much. IBT, the French begin Magellan's.

6 - Our final set of furs is connected. Otherwise, not much.

7 - 47 gpt, 5 gold, and our WM to Joan for Banking. Astronomy from Russia for Banking 6 gpt, and 93 gold. Astronomy to Abu for Monarchy, his wm, and 8 gold.

8 - Not much.

9 - Not much. IBT, :eek: the French begin Smith's...

10 - Not much.

Sorry about not leaving you with any money Grimjack. Hopefully once our FP, and a few marketplaces complete, we'll be start pulling in a few more gpt. Once Berlin finishes it's bank, we can probably put it on military production as it is currently making 20 spt. I have switched Heidleburg from a library (due next turn if Grimjack wants to veto this change) to an aqueduct as the city is already size 6. We need to get Nuremburg connected to our road network, so we can put its worker back to work. Please send the warrior next to Hannover and the archer next to Leipzig to Bremen to help prevent it from flipping. After the workers outside Konigsburg finish roading the hills, send them to chop the silk forest to help speed the Konigsburg's courthouse. Our incense and furs deal with Joan expires next turn; hopefully we'll be able to convince her she should pay us a few more gpt... (if you can, and assuming she has some gpt to spare, try to get both luxuries off of her for one of ours and some gpt, then trade her the second luxury for gpt (according to T-hawk, the value of the second luxury will be higher if you do it this way). If she doesn't have enough gpt, then just take the 2-for-2 trade...)

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/ST2-50AD.zip

Good luck Grimjack!

JMB
 
See it, and will try to play in about 10-12 hours.

Nice to get the status report so detailed. Will save me quite a bit of time loading up the game :)

Grimjack
 
Preturn: not much to do. In fact I cannot find a single change I feel compelled to do. I duly note that we need to raise lux tax a a few turns as our cities grow to size 8.

IBT: Woops. An english spearman enters our territory, and Abu wants to join the hitlist as he demands Banking....
I fold of course. I do not think our defenses are up to the possible dogpile yet.

70AD Arrggg, renegotiating the luxes deal with France cost us an additional 2 gpt. :(

IBT: Forbidden Palace completes, Skim a worker out of Munich before starting on Aqueduct. Persian City of Tyre completes Bach's.

90AD Increase lux tax to 10 %, and fire a taxman in KOnigsberg. ( Alternative would have been to hire a taxman in Frankfurt. )

IBT: Forest chop by Leipzig reveals bonus grass.

110AD MOvement

IBT: Nada

130AD Converge workers on Berlin, in order to take away food as berlin reaches size 12.
Hmm, Printing press is known :(
Only by France and Persia. SMall chance of trading with the others remain.
Frankfurt completes Marketplace and I set it to barracks. Frankfurt also MMed for growth instead of shields, as happiness is plenty now with Market.

150AD Nix luxes and put back teh taxpayer in Konigsberg

IBT: Berlin completes Bank, and is set to Medievals. Berlin is at 22 spt, and a couple of quick Medievals might be useful.
Debating with myself if I would want a pikeman or a medieval, and Medieval have a much higher value for preventing demansd.
Income jumps to 54 gpt. PP in 4 turns. Be patient Grimjack.

170AD Bah, who am I kidding. Money is burning in my pocket. Economics from France for 38 gpt and some change
Gunpowder from Brittish for Economics and 3 gpt
Music Theory and Dyes and 16 gold from Abu for Economics. ( I assume he would have demanded it otherwise. )
Cannot get Navigation from Russia. Will wait four turns, and hope I can get it for PP and Economics.
France and Persia have Chemistry. Nonen of the others have it. They are up Chivalry,Music Theory and Navigation.

IBT: Nada

190AD No matter how I fiddle, I realize I cannot get Berlin to other than 24 spt, unless I put it on starvation diet and mine the mountain.
Hopefully someone more able then me can fix it to 25 spt next turn.

IBT: Berlin Medieval->Medieval, Frankfurt Barracks->Pike,

210 Move workers. Note that Leipzig is starting to work unimproved tiles. Workers are improving around Frankfurt and will soon be finished.
Rush library in Bremen.

IBT: Bremen completes library, and is set to worker.

230 Notice that incense, 44 gpt and 50 gold will get us Chemistry from England. I can almost get it from Persia as well.
After some haggling I buy Chemistry for 44 gpt and 23 gold.Use Chemistry to buy Navigation from Russia and Chivalry from Arabs.
( I used the tech at once, hoping the next demand will be for maps and spare change instead of our trade bait. )
All civs know PP now, so I couldn't use that for barter either. Will let next player decide on what to put our lone scientist on.
QUite possibly nothing, or maybe Democracy.

IBT: Berlin Medieval->Knight
Hamburg Aqueduct->Market
Konigsberg Courthouse -> Market + one taxman
Hannover Library->Granary

250 MM Frankfurt for faster growth, noting it needs MM to stay on a 7,7,6 food cycle.

Note to next player. Perhaps best to nix the lone scientist, as France,England and Persia already know Democracy. That is all they are up though.
In 8 turns you will get some money back from France. This is hopefully enough together with the money from the Marketplaces due to complete to make a twofer
for Physics/Metallurgy. With some luck we might get a tech worth something as our free tech when we advance.

Grimjack

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/ST2_250AD.sav
 
I was hoping to get Berlin to 25 spt to build longbows, but at 22, that is not going to happen.

Had hoped for longbows to cost 40 shields, as then it would have been a tough choice between Medievals and longbows. As it is, the ten shield difference makes Medievals still more cost-effective. If we hadn't had any iron though...

But also as you said, tech is progressing rather fast.

Perhaps would have been better with a monarch always war to test those units.
Grimjack
 
Got it.
Grimjack is right, a small-map pangea deity game isn't a good place to experiment with early warfare. I'm currently attempting a solo AWD game on such a map, but I play with one less opponent and the tech pace is still thus fast that I wouldn't have a chance without the GL.
 
Everyone has been surprisingly peaceful. Maybe we won't see the effect of cavs vs. muskets but will be able checkout the effect of the changes in the rifles, marines and paratroupers. :hammer:
 
Preturn: MM Munich to get the needed Aqueduct one turn earlier.
Berlin has its infrastructure already built.
Grimjack has already set it to knights, that way we get the most of its shields
(72 shield knights are better than 48 shield pikes or MDIs with a horrible upgrade path)
I reconfigure it to get a knight every 3 turns, everything else seems Ok.
And I just *love* the cheating of the AI, Brighton is near the only
source of Salpeter on our part of the map.


260: Leipzig: marketplace -> courthouse
Frankfurt: pikeman -> bank
Heidelburg: Aqueduct -> marketplace
Nuremberg: Library -> granary
France is already in Democracy, England currently revolting
Selling our WM gives a total of 24 gold.
A lot of worker assignements.

270: France and Persia now have Metallurgy.
Munich: aqueduct -> marketplace
Begin a road towards Nuremberg

280: Berlin: knight
Not much, apart from a few gold for our WM.
The Persians have finished Smith

IT: Russia extorts us for 25 gold and maps :(
At least Cathy isn't annoyed any more.
Interesting: Our advisor keeps saying: The russian military has
the knight and 'the english military has the horseman'
Do the English lack iron?
boarder expansion at Nuremberg secures our third source of iron.

290: The Arabs now also have Democracy and England just got metallurgy
Only some worker assignements

300: Bremen: worker -> worker
The road to Nuremberg is finished and the workers begin a forest chop
to bring irrigation to the city.
3 turns before two deals will end.

310: Berlin: knight
After Frankfurt has completed its bank, we could set it on a 4-turn cycle worker/pike
Persia and France (who seems to be the tech leader, since it is the only one
with cash) now have physics, still no deals possible.
Persia and France are the only one staying in republic (together with us)

320: Now England also has physics and the Arabs have Metallurgy,
just one turn....

330: Stuttgart: harbour: -> granary
The hill near the city needs a mine.
Our income increases to 81gpt, with two deals ending.

The best offer for physics is 50 gpt and some cash by France. England and Persia
want at least 60.
So Physics from France for 50gpt and 140 gold.
Physics and 6gpt to Abu (the only one who lacks it) for Metallurgy.
Not an excellent trade but it was the only one possible.
Russia lacks both technologies, but has absolutely nothing to offer.

340: Persia and France just got MT.
Berlin: knight

350:
Munich: marketplace -> pike (at 10spt, but of course vetoable)
Hamburg: marketplace -> courthouse
Forest chop at nuremberg completed, starting irrigation.

Notes: There are 3 workers N, just finished a mine, could be used to connect Bonn.
Frankfurt is at size 12 and has to many irrigated tiles.
On my last turn, France got Magnetism. Now I'm questioning myself if
I should have waited to get it together with Physics and Metallurgy
but Arabia was our only brokering-chance and I didn't want to lose it.
I also feared to be extorted because by waiting a few turns we would have stockpiled quite a lot cash.
The economy of Russia must be very weak as they never have gold or gpt available.
A few deals are about to expire, so T-Hawk should be able to kick us into the next age :)
We are behind MT (France and Persia) and Magnetism (only France).

Belisar


SAVE
 
Good turns yet again. Any 2-fer brokerage with good/required techs is good to take immediately, don't wait. :goodjob: Physics and Metallurgy is a fine pair to take, since 90% of the time you can then broker between Magnetism and ToG and sometimes Military Tradition as well.

I see it and should get to play tonight. Maybe I'll finally get some meaningful war buildup going. :)
 
IT: Munich to granary, since it's a powerful city that will have to grow on its own, and it gets MMed to finish the granary before growing. Make a couple MM tweaks but all else looks good.

Diplo check: Furs to England for a measly 5gpt cancelled.


==========

Little happens. In 390 AD, France has Theory of Gravity for the Industrial Age but it's a monopoly and we can't afford it. Hey, why do we have no embassies? 400 AD sees us establish all of those except Persia (couldn't afford it.) The only war in the world is Persia vs Russia. England and France have 7 luxuries each which is why they're ahead; Russia has only three and Arabia 2.

France started marching a LOT of musketeers into our territory, but it looks like they're headed to reinforce Dijon and/or sneak-attack the English over there. I built a few catapults out of Berlin to aid the knights if we do get attacked.

440 AD: A payment ran out and we have 161 gold/turn to spend. I decide to pay monopoly price for Theory of Gravity.

Theory of Gravity from France for 142 gold/turn + Incense.
Magnetism and spare change from Persia for ToG + Furs.
Industrial Age free tech... survey says... Medicine. Blah. :yeah: France has Nationalism already, much to my surprise. Persia however just got Steam Power for free.
722 gold + 171/turn from France for our monopoly on Medicine. Knowing we could do that is why I paid monopoly for ToG. :goodjob:
Military Tradition from England for ToG + change.
Dyes + change from Arabia for Magnetism.

Time to spice things up: I attempt an immediate tech steal from the French for 900 gold. If we end up at war, I'm okay with that since we get out of that 142/turn payment. But we succeed and get Nationalism!

Steam Power + change from Persia for Nationalism + Medicine.
80 gpt + Wines + Ivory from France for Steam Power.

We have coal at Nuremburg although it's not hooked up yet. France doesn't, because England has FOUR coals in their territory! And Nuremburg can build the Iron Works!

Also establish embassy with Persia. Persepolis has four wonders but NO regular culture buildings. :smoke: And it's defended by ten regular muskets. :smoke: [pimp]

st2-450ad.jpg


Six techs and tech parity, and we have 273/turn income. :goodjob:

Nuremburg is prebuilding for the Iron Works. The coal will be hooked up in 3 turns. Build lots more workers. :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/st2-450ad.zip
 
Tech stealing is one of the most under used things that most deity players can do in the late midevil age.:)

Umm, where did I learn that? I think it was T-hawk. :)
 
Actually, Cartouche, not always. :) The safe steal and usually even careful steal prices are higher than the buy prices all the way up until Atomic Theory and Flight.

Three factors can make stealing worthwhile, though. First, the specific techs of Republic and Nationalism are expensive for their time period and have trade-cost multipliers. Note that if you steal, you benefit on both sides of the trade-cost multiplier, by avoiding it when buying and taking advantage of it when selling.

Second, it's obviously good to get a tech immediately to use and resell - so keep an eye out to parley a steal into a brokerage.

The last condition to steal is if you don't mind failing and war with the target civ, especially if it'll get you out of a payment. And so we clearly had all the conditions in spades here, so I went for it. :)

Oh, and
Hotrod << UP NOW
JMB << On Deck
 
<delurk>

Great game so far!

Anyway, another time for an immediate steal comes up in a tight space race. It can come down to a choice between getting that tech, or else having to take down the enemy capitol. So if you haven't the cash for a better effort, the right-away tech steal may be the logical next step.


<relurk>
 
I've got it but am up in LK52 as well and have zero time to play tonight. Will play and post both, I hope tomorrow :D.

Before then what are our short/long term goals. Besides the obvious, rails, workers. Are we going to war soon?

Curious why you chose communism - purely trade value? Why not Electricity first? Or Industrialization?
 
Our opponents have riflemen and we don't have cavalry (no saltpeter.) We aren't going to war if we can help it. Short-term plans: build rails, prebuild factories (start some universities in a few turns.)

I set research to Communism because we can afford to wait 32 turns for it. Industrialization and Electricity are likely to be brokerable before then, and Sanitation is dirt cheap for an industrial tech. You could switch to Sanitation if you want - we're only one turn into Communism.
 
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