The Generational-Linguistic Split

[uppi]

Oh and back on the buying houses thing

View attachment 649566

Not sure the scope of cities included here from say Europe, and it's pre-pandemic so they have gone up more since... but it's completely insane that Caloundra is as unaffordable as San Francisco lol

According to the source, it essentially only includes the countries listed here. Which is the only way this makes sense, because many continental European cities would be above Vancouver.

I found more comprehensive data here:

Property Prices Index 2024

Property Investment Index. See comparison of indicators for residential property investment like apartment price to income ratio, price to rent ratio, gross rental yield, loan affrodability index, ...

www.numbeo.com

Here Vancouver ranks at place 129, and there is more than 50 European cities above it. Houses in English-speaking countries seem to be affordable in comparison*. So I don't think this is the explanation for the effect described in the OP. If anything, the data suggest an inverse relationship (wild hypothesis: High housing prices make young families move to more rural areas where they become more conservative?)

*There is one curious effect though: In Canada and New Zealand (but not the UK and US), the actual house prices compared to income are not that bad, but the mortgage as percentage of disposable income is quite high (on the level of European cities). Which means that either interest is much higher or that they are paying much more for something else.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

When I think of Tokyo, I don’t think of housing in a sense of a single family home in a low density residential area (I’m sure there are areas in Tokyo and any other metropolis that are zoned low density single family residential). Instead I think of the mid-high density multi family zone that are eather multi unit apartments or multi unit condos (I’m presuming in this case, condos since housing you own and you practically own a condo unit).

This does raises questions for me, in good faith and curiosity, of how a single-family house or a condo unit within a condominium complex/tower can be affordable while situated in a high land value area (my take is that the higher the land value the more expensive the house/condo unit would be) with the only two answers in my deck being eather wages are enough to buy a house/unit in a high land value area and/or government subsidies to cover the cost. I’ll admit that I’m oversimplifying it a bit since I’m coming from city builders like SimCity and City Skylines.

This is an entire other debate but Tokyo has pretty stringent tenant protections combined with the fact that they build more new housing units in one year than the average American or European city builds in almost two decades.

Yeah the main economic things I see left-leaning young people complain about here are the costs of healthcare, housing, and education. As well as poor working conditions in retail jobs. It is weird though that the Republican states tend to be gaining population faster than the Democratic states due to being more affordable. But that can then turn places like Georgia and North Carolina into more of swing states.

Yeah Texas has absorbed an enormous amount of new people and continues to do so, but the large cities there have almost officially reached California’s cost of living. Some of the most trendy areas of Austin have actually surpassed California’s CoL.

 

[Samson]

According to the source, it essentially only includes the countries listed here. Which is the only way this makes sense, because many continental European cities would be above Vancouver.

I found more comprehensive data here:

Property Prices Index 2024

Property Investment Index. See comparison of indicators for residential property investment like apartment price to income ratio, price to rent ratio, gross rental yield, loan affrodability index, ...

www.numbeo.com

Here Vancouver ranks at place 129, and there is more than 50 European cities above it. Houses in English-speaking countries seem to be affordable in comparison*. So I don't think this is the explanation for the effect described in the OP. If anything, the data suggest an inverse relationship (wild hypothesis: High housing prices make young families move to more rural areas where they become more conservative?)

*There is one curious effect though: In Canada and New Zealand (but not the UK and US), the actual house prices compared to income are not that bad, but the mortgage as percentage of disposable income is quite high (on the level of European cities). Which means that either interest is much higher or that they are paying much more for something else.

Interesting, but I do not get how their definition of disposable income can mean anything:

• net disposable family income, as defined as 1.5 * the average net salary (50% is assumed percentage of women in the workforce)

 

[uppi]

Interesting, but I do not get how their definition of disposable income can mean anything:

• net disposable family income, as defined as 1.5 * the average net salary (50% is assumed percentage of women in the workforce)

Ah yes, you are right. So it can only be interest rate then. And yes that seems to be quite high in New Zealand.

 

[stfoskey12]

Yeah Texas has absorbed an enormous amount of new people and continues to do so, but the large cities there have almost officially reached California’s cost of living. Some of the most trendy areas of Austin have actually surpassed California’s CoL.

Yeah Austin is starting to have cost issues, but Houston is still pretty affordable. I have a friend who makes $75K/year and was able to buy a decent house in the Houston suburbs.

Here's an image from Wikipedia showing prices are still worst on the California coast and in Northeastern cities.

Spoiler :

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

The homes are still cheaper but property taxes and utilities in Texas are higher than California pretty significantly unless you’re like top 5% wealth in California. The cost of living curve in the latter is just a lot more progressive than Texas, in a surprise to nobody.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ah yes, you are right. So it can only be interest rate then. And yes that seems to be quite high in New Zealand.

NZ has the most unaffordable housing relative to income in the OECD.

Australia and Canada may be more expensive in absolute terms but wages are higher, economy of scale etc.

 

[Lexicus]

Life isn't secure.

Name a communist regime where people felt secure.

Most people felt more secure in the Soviet Union than they do now in the post-Soviet states.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yeah the main economic things I see left-leaning young people complain about here are the costs of healthcare, housing, and education. As well as poor working conditions in retail jobs. It is weird though that the Republican states tend to be gaining population faster than the Democratic states due to being more affordable. But that can then turn places like Georgia and North Carolina into more of swing states.

Yeah Texas has absorbed an enormous amount of new people and continues to do so, but the large cities there have almost officially reached California’s cost of living. Some of the most trendy areas of Austin have actually surpassed California’s CoL.

Migration from blue states to red states is not always exactly what it seems. Most of it stems for two reasons retirees and employment. Northern blue state retirees have been moving south for decades and the boomer wave is just beginning. Most are fleeing the snow and cold. Tech industry is growing in the south too. Austin and Raleigh Durham are rime examples. Younger folks are moving to those new employment centers for work. They are turning both TX and NC purple. The lower cost of living in the south and west is also a draw, but it doesn't take long for the influx of people to drive up the costs of living there. High taxes are rarely a problem for the rich. They have ways of avoiding them. Middle class people typically need a different reason to move across the country since it will upset their lives and disrupt their community life. A new job (for more money!) or retirement are powerful reasons to make such a major change.

 

[Narz]

Most people felt more secure in the Soviet Union than they do now in the post-Soviet states.

Even assuming this is true (I can skip yoga today cuz thats a stretch) maybe they shouldn't have because it wasn't secure was it?

How many mofos you hear about defecting form US to USSR?

 

[Zardnaar]

Even assuming this is true (I can skip yoga today cuz thats a stretch) maybe they shouldn't have because it wasn't secure was it?

How many mofos you hear about defecting form US to USSR?

More than you think. Stalin purged them though. A few survived.

 

[Narz]

More than you think. Stalin purged them though. A few survived.

Yeah, alot of North Koreans moved back to the homeland from Japan in the early days to support their ideals. They say live and learn but sometimes you gotta die so someone else learns.

 

[Joij21]

There is one curious effect though: In Canada and New Zealand (but not the UK and US), the actual house prices compared to income are not that bad, but the mortgage as percentage of disposable income is quite high (on the level of European cities). Which means that either interest is much higher or that they are paying much more for something else.

Clearly this is old fashioned bankster greed at work. Either sell a repossessed (banksters and their repo-reselling schemes are how they hijack supply and demand within the housing market and rig prices) house for a low cost, but then charge a ridiculous interest rate to make those gains back as soon as possible. Or sell an overpriced repossessed house that your customer will struggle to afford, then give them a massive mortgage that requires an entire lifetime to pay off but at a very low interest rate.

Or perhaps it could better be said that having a low interest rate is considered a privilege that only those that have first put down a massive down payment should have the right to indulge in. Banksters need to know they can trust you to pay them back in full, so you gotta show your already rich to hand you lended money at a low rate. Especially since it won't be payed off until the bankster is nearly dead too, so he wants you to give him a lump sum now that HE can indulge in right now, while he also currently collects lump sums from others.

If on the other hand the house is forced to be sold at a lower down payment through government regulations then the bankster gets upset. Why? Because no money here and NOW to indulge in! So instead he needs a vigorous tributary plan whereby your going to be paying the damn thing off as quickly as possible wether you like it or not! Therefore that interest rate is going to be through the roof!!!

Hey pal it's nothing personal, just buisness.

 

[danjuno]

Name a communist regime where people felt secure.

Stateless, classless societies have existed longer than organized states.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Stateless, classless societies have existed longer than organized states.

Yes, but were any of them of significant size?
Which ones made a transition into an age more advanced than the one they began in?
How many survived contact with class based states?
Utopian groups have been appearing and disappearing for centuries; they all failed for a variety of reasons.

In addition, it is important to differentiate between "primitive" stateless, classless societies and communism as it developed in the 20th C. They are not the same. As yet I have not seen any presentation of a classless, stateless society that can function in the 21st C at a scale larger than maybe a few thousand citizens.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Even assuming this is true (I can skip yoga today cuz thats a stretch) maybe they shouldn't have because it wasn't secure was it?

How many mofos you hear about defecting form US to USSR?

How many many people are secure in capitalist societies that aren't already rich or born into wealth and privilege?

If your contention is that anything resembling socialism sucks then you best be prepared to defend why people are having to work multiple jobs and STILL can't break even in capitalism at this point

 

[bernie14]

Most people felt more secure in the Soviet Union than they do now in the post-Soviet states.

Yep...until you get a knock on the door

Stateless, classless societies have existed longer than organized states.

Says who?

 

[Lexicus]

more advanced

A society without credit scores is obviously more advanced than one with them.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well, by "advanced" I was referring to advances we've seen over time in tech, arts, science, and all the other improvements that have been made in overall prosperity and general welfare.

 

[bernie14]

A society without credit scores is obviously more advanced than one with them.

"elder" is a credit score