The last Antisemitic Events

[Dostayer]

Just for you to be aware: most of the videos are edited/recorded in very particular way that the IDF will look bad, sometimes the situation isn't what it seems (I remember a picture that the soldier is claimed to be an Israeli stepping upon a little Palestinian girl, both the soldier and girl were Syrian)...
And if you are talking about the Gaza Wars, you should know that this organization (Hamas) has fired everyday for 7 years rockets to Israel, targeting civilian population, it halted after the first war ended, and renewed some time after, the second one was mainly to stop it again.
Civilian structures weren't intentionally aimed, and if does, the IDF will try to evacuate the civilians in it (by calling or drop pamphlet) and then attack, usually because of the ammo or other warfare equipment stored inside.
Hamas is an Islamic Terror organization (brother organization/branch of the Muslim Bothers) that will never recognize Israel under any circumstance, its is also responsible for many terror acts over the years.

 

[Old Hippy]

Just for you to be aware: most of the videos are edited/recorded in very particular way that the IDF will look bad, sometimes the situation isn't what it seems (I remember a picture that the soldier is claimed to be an Israeli stepping upon a little Palestinian girl, both the soldier and girl were Syrian)...
And if you are talking about the Gaza Wars, you should know that this organization (Hamas) has fired everyday for 7 years rockets to Israel, targeting civilian population, it halted after the first war ended, and renewed some time after, the second one was mainly to stop it again.
Civilian structures weren't intentionally aimed, and if does, the IDF will try to evacuate the civilians in it (by calling or drop pamphlet) and then attack, usually because of the ammo or other warfare equipment stored inside.
Hamas is an Islamic Terror organization (brother organization/branch of the Muslim Bothers) that will never recognize Israel under any circumstance, its is also responsible for many terror acts over the years.

one reason for that, wrong as it is, is that no matter what gets shown Isreal is ALWAYS in the right, as evidenced by your post, Isreal just never does anything wrong, but even you say most videos, care to share something that shows Isreal in a bad light...

 

[Ajidica]

And if you are talking about the Gaza Wars, you should know that this organization (Hamas) has fired everyday for 7 years rockets to Israel, targeting civilian population, it halted after the first war ended, and renewed some time after, the second one was mainly to stop it again.

Despite that, the Hamas rocket attacks killed fewer people than the number of people killed in St. Paul, Minnesota (my hometown) from homicide in a given year.

[Hamas] will never recognize Israel under any circumstance

Not true.

CAIRO — One day after celebrating a landmark reconciliation accord for Palestinian unity, Khaled Meshal, the Hamas leader, said on Thursday that he was fully committed to working for a two-state solution but declined to swear off violence or agree that a Palestinian state would produce an end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/06/world/middleeast/06palestinians.html?_r=0

The reconciliation agreement between the two major Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, which was signed in Gaza on Wednesday, is based on a two-state solution and recognizes the State of Israel, senior Fatah official Jibril Rajoub said on Thursday.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.587047
(I don't remember much about Israeli news organizations, so if Haaretz is the Israeli version of The Sun, please don't get angry.)

I acknowledge that while there are likely people in leadership positions in Hamas who do want to see Israel destroyed, it is evidently not a unanimous opinion among the leadership.
The last few rounds of negotiation have collapsed, mainly due to the intransigence of the Israeli leadership with regards to settlements in land that outside observers in the EU and America consider to be part of any future Palestinian state.

Both Israel and the Palestine Authority have acted in bad faith toward each other and taken counterproductive actions, but lately the international community -especially the West- is getting increasingly annoyed at the current Israeli government.

 

[CuddlyBear]

*Judaism isn't just a religion nowadays, and many Jews (more than a half I guess) don't believe in the Bible (Torah) as it was written, in fact the main thing that determinate the laws of the religion is the Halacha, which written much much later. The whole historical context is in great debate to be honest (many researchers believe that it was written the the Kingdom of Judea, and the section before 1 kings lacks in evidence) and it does have some historic value (most of the later events in the books are real) but it shows them in a really certain pattern in order to teach "Follow God" rather than history.

Yeah, that's my problem with book religions. They realise their holy text doesn't match with reality -> interpret as you wish -> problem solved. Back in the olden days people who questioned whether Moses really wrote the books attributed to him were sent to jail. Now it's common knowledge it wasn't Moses and that the books aren't historically accurate. So now we get to interpret the meaning of these texts said to be the word of God and pretty much no one can agree on the "correct" interpretation. The way society changes, so does religion and so does the word of God. Then we have people fighting over whose God and interpretation is the correct one. Not just Jews, Christians and Muslims among each other but among themselves as well. No one has the original texts. No one even knows the original authors of many of the books! God really messed up the whole 'inspiring people to write holy texts to guide them in following me' thing. I find these religions totally absurd.

I could also go on a rant how pissed I've become at believers trying to inject their beliefs into schools and day care but I've gone off-topic enough already. The more secular society becomes, the more they feel like their "rights" are trampled upon and the more they whine how they are the victim. I'm sick and tired of it.

 

[Tahuti]

I am anti-Judaism. I find Judaism and the other Abrahamic religions Christianity and Islam to be completely disgusting religions. YHWH is a monstrous racist genocidal tyrant. In leading the Israelites to their Promised Land Yahweh commands his followers to conquer every city and to kill every non-Israelite, except a few, as a sacrificial offering to him. The Israelites do this in their murderous quest for lebensraum. ... and I'm the one immoral for not believing in your _just_, _forgiving_ and _loving_ god. The whole cult of the God's chosen people and the promised land is just too disgusting. Your religion makes me sick.

Anti-Judaism in practice is also quite common among Jews in the ethnic sense itself, I don't understand why you bring it up in this thread when no one really brought forward in the first place.

Anyway, you sound like an angsty teenage antiheist. If you take biblical texts literally to prove a point, it does not make you different from religious fundamentalists.

So I'm only allowed to criticize Israel's policies if I have directly suffered from them?

Again, strawman. I did not say you are not allowed to critise Israel's policies, only that you should understand some people find it suspicious, since it perceived - whether you think it is right or not - as a condemnation of being able to defend yourself.

Despite that, the Hamas rocket attacks killed fewer people than the number of people killed in St. Paul, Minnesota (my hometown) from homicide in a given year.

The death-rate of the Israeli-Palestinian in generally resemble the homicide rate of any major US city, so I don't see your point here.

Not true.

What's more, Israel supported Hamas as a counterweight against the PLO in the 1970s and 1980s. Unlike the PLO and Hezbollah, Hamas never targeted Jews (not Israelis) abroad as far as I know. When you think of it from an Israeli perspective, it is actually astounding PLO are considered negotiation partners while Hamas is the one Israel's with war with, given that the PLO operates on a platform of Palestinian nationalism - which is easily given to irredentism - while Hamas is more of Islamist particularism.

 

[Commodore]

Again, strawman. I did not say you are not allowed to critise Israel's policies, only that you should understand some people find it suspicious, since it perceived - whether you think it is right or not - as a condemnation of being able to defend yourself.

It's not a strawman, it's the implication in what you said. And I quote:

I find it strange people feel offended when they are labelled as potential antisemites: Few people who criticise Israel actually have suffered from Israel's actions what those may be, so the perceived connection is understandable.

How am I supposed to interpret that? Because it sounds like you are implying that criticism from someone who has not directly suffered from Israel's actions can only be interpreted as anti-Semitism.

And why am I subject to suspicion of being an anti-Semite by criticizing Israeli policy? If I were to write about my disagreements with the Iranian government nobody would suspect me of being anti-Persian. They would see the criticism for what it is, my disagreement with the policies of the Iranian government. But such is not the case for those who criticize the Israeli government. No, if you criticize Israeli policy then you are, as you said, open to suspicion of and possibly accused of being an anti-Semite. It is an irrational suspicion and, like I said, I have only really noticed it in Jews living outside of Israel.

 

[Borachio]

Front National and FPÖ have long ceased to be antisemitic and the Danish Peoples' Party was strongly Pro-Israel from its inception.

I've no doubt they do indeed claim to not be antisemitic. And the DPP may very well be Pro-Israel.

Doesn't stop them being fascist, though. Nor would it stop them being generally xenophobic and even racist. Even if they keep it quiet. Even if they accuse others of being racist.

 

[CuddlyBear]

Anti-Judaism in practice is also quite common among Jews in the ethnic sense itself, I don't understand why you bring it up in this thread when no one really brought forward in the first place.

I brought up Judaism because that's what comes to my mind when I hear the word "Jew". Israel brings me the Promised Land and the Old Testament. I find them so disgusting might as well share some of it.

Anyway, you sound like an angsty teenage antiheist. If you take biblical texts literally to prove a point, it does not make you different from religious fundamentalists.

Interpret as you wish. In 500 years how are the people going to interpret the Bible? It's going to change. Are they right in their interpretations or perhaps those living 500 years ago were right? When we find life outside Earth the religious leaders will go on to interpret their Bible and there problem solved when now plenty of them even deny evolution because reality challenges their interpretations. These same people come with their contradictory interpretations to force Christianity into schools and act as if they're right in their moral views and their morality should apply to everyone. The hell with them. Then it's all about "whiny atheists", "militant atheists" or even "teenage angst" cus deep down they've got doubt but they still want to believe what they want to believe. Of course I'm going to be a bloody militant atheist when the believers so militantly want to deny freedom of religion in this country. /rant

 

[El_Machinae]

Actually criticism of Israel is too often conflated with anti-Semitism when it is actually nothing more than criticism of Israel.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

This is why it pays to be an active listener. Odds are, the person is just trying to criticise Israel and is screwing up his phrasing. To actively look for anti-Semitism is a mistake, because it's actively avoiding the criticism. The trick is to try to help the criticiser rephrase their argument. It just moves the discussion forwards. Accusing them of anti-Semitism just frustrates the intent. At the very worst, the person is then tempted to become an anti-Semite in order to forward their criticism of Israel.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Interestingly, Muslims living in Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank have intentionally become much more anti-Semitic than in the past in reaction to being chronically mistreated. Many of them apparently now feel that in order to get attention to their plight that they must deliberately falsely claim they deny the Holocaust.

Regarding this so-called "new antisemitism" which has recently gotten so much publicity:

Norman Finkelstein argues that organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League have brought forward charges of new antisemitism at various intervals since the 1970s, "not to fight antisemitism but rather to exploit the historical suffering of Jews in order to immunize Israel against criticism".[26] He writes that most evidence purporting to show a new antisemitism has been taken from organizations that are linked in some way to Israel, or that have "a material stake in inflating the findings of anti-Semitism," and that some antisemitic incidents reported in recent years either did not occur or were misidentified.[27] As an example of the misuse of the term "antisemitism," he cites the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia's 2003 report, which included displays of the Palestinian flag, support for the PLO, and the comparisons between Israel and apartheid-era South Africa in its list of antisemitic activities and beliefs.[28]

He writes that what is called the new antisemitism consists of three components: (i)]"exaggeration and fabrication"; (ii) "mislabeling legitimate criticism of Israeli policy"; and (iii) "the unjustified yet predictable spillover from criticism of Israel to Jews generally."[30] He argues that Israel's apologists have denied a causal relationship between Israeli policies and hostility toward Jews, since "if Israeli policies, and widespread Jewish support for them, evoke hostility toward Jews, it means that Israel and its Jewish supporters might themselves be causing anti-Semitism; and it might be doing so because Israel and its Jewish supporters are in the wrong".[31]

Tariq Ali, a British-Pakistani historian and political activist, argues that the concept of new antisemitism amounts to an attempt to subvert the language in the interests of the State of Israel. He writes that the campaign against "the supposed new 'anti-semitism'" in modern Europe is a "cynical ploy on the part of the Israeli Government to seal off the Zionist state from any criticism of its regular and consistent brutality against the Palestinians.... Criticism of Israel can not and should not be equated with anti-semitism." He argues that most pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist groups that emerged after the Six-Day War were careful to observe the distinction between anti-Zionism and antisemitism.[32]

Lerman argues that this redefinition has had unfortunate repercussions. He writes that serious scholarly research into contemporary antisemitism has become "virtually non-existent", and that the subject is now most frequently studied and analyzed by "people lacking any serious expertise in the subject, whose principal aim is to excoriate Jewish critics of Israel and to promote the "anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism" equation. Lerman concludes that this redefinition has ultimately served to stifle legitimate discussion, and that it cannot create a basis on which to fight antisemitism.[36]\\

Peter Beaumont, writing in The Observer, agrees that proponents of the concept of "new antisemitism" have attempted to co-opt anti-Jewish sentiment and attacks by some European Muslims as a way to silence opposition to the policies of the Israeli government. "[C]riticise Israel," he writes, "and you are an anti-Semite just as surely as if you were throwing paint at a synagogue in Paris."[37]

This has become much more a political tool instead of reporting real anti-Semitism, which has decreased dramatically worldwide since the Roman Catholic Church and others no longer actively support passion plays. Antisemitism clearly still exists. But it is now on a far smaller scale than in the past when it was a large part of the reason to justify the creation of Israel. It has just been redefined by those who wish to do so for political reasons.

 

[Traitorfish]

This is why it pays to be an active listener. Odds are, the person is just trying to criticise Israel and is screwing up his phrasing. To actively look for anti-Semitism is a mistake, because it's actively avoiding the criticism. The trick is to try to help the criticiser rephrase their argument. It just moves the discussion forwards. Accusing them of anti-Semitism just frustrates the intent. At the very worst, the person is then tempted to become an anti-Semite in order to forward their criticism of Israel.

Good post, and advice that applies more generally. (Lord knows I could stand to take it to heart.)

 

[Borachio]

I second the above opinion. (What's it mean, again?)

 

[Tahuti]

Then it's all about "whiny atheists", "militant atheists" or even "teenage angst" cus deep down they've got doubt but they still want to believe what they want to believe. Of course I'm going to be a bloody militant atheist when the believers so militantly want to deny freedom of religion in this country. /rant

I'm not particularly religious myself, and I do not hate atheists. A die-hard religious person may well attack me for being an atheist to boot, even though I am an panentheist who is unaffiliated. Religion as a viable institution in the West has been decaying for some time, given that most mainstream Christian denominations have been too dogmatic in their interpretations, even though it didn't have any negative consequences in practice. However, these very institutions did help spread knowledge and culture throughout Europe.

We probably won't get Christianity in its old form back. Ever. Though I argue Europe should recreate a similar religious institutions to regain its benefits to stem the tide of social atomism and hyperrationalism.

How am I supposed to interpret that? Because it sounds like you are implying that criticism from someone who has not directly suffered from Israel's actions can only be interpreted as anti-Semitism.

No, it does not. Rather, I am saying that is understandable and not idiotic at all to assume such a connection as a precaution. It is not logically valid all the time, it is a heuristic. Now there are definitely people who claim that Anti-Israel sentiment = antisemitism out of sheer lack of intelligence, though that also means there is are significant amount of people who think that Anti-Israel sentiment should be taken as a sign that antisemitism is right.

 

[JollyRoger]

I am saying that is understandable and not idiotic at all to assume such a connection as a precaution.

Why is it understandable and not idiotic to cling to a fallacy out of precaution?

 

[Tahuti]

Why is it understandable and not idiotic to cling to a fallacy out of precaution?

Fallacy != Heuristic

 

[JollyRoger]

A notion can be both.

 

[Domen]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13244964&postcount=110

(...) Palestinians (...)

Hmmmm, really?:


Link to video.


Link to video.

 

[Domen]

Link to video.

 

[Domen]

Interestingly, Muslims living in Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank have intentionally become much more anti-Semitic than in the past in reaction to being chronically mistreated.

Poor Muslims. Invasions by multiple armies didn't "help", so now they are sending in kids with stones.

Subtle difference between Israelis and Arabs:

 

[Traitorfish]

"Palestinians shoot soldiers but Israelis shoot children"?