Ukraine Crisis master thread

[Formaldehyde]

Well, go right ahead. Explain how this apparent further hyperbole is not "hypothetical" and "relevant to the situation at hand".

There was nothing stopping the Ukrainian government from signing both agreements, except for the seeming unwillingness of the Parliament to satisfy the EU requirements. Yanukovych apparently wished to do so and seemingly worked hard to achieve that goal.

 

[kramerfan86]

Are the EU and the US bitter rivals? Are there any countries that straddle their borders and that would be advantageous for them to have close relationships at the expense of the rival? The answer is no for both which is why your sample question is utterly useless as a hyperbole for the situation at hand.

And I want to repeat that I also leave the door open for it to be a completely internal problem, but the idea either the EU or Russia would prefer to have Ukraine solidly with them and not with the other isnt exactly a giant leap.

 

[Lone Wolf]

There was nothing stopping the Ukrainian government from signing both agreements, except for the seeming unwillingness of the Parliament to satisfy the EU requirements. Yanukovych apparently wished to do so and seemingly worked hard to achieve that goal.

The entire reason for the whole thingy was Yanukovich government freezing the EU association treaty talks. Azarov, Yanukovich's prime minister, officially explained that he considered the EU demands so far to be unprofitable for Ukraine.

 

[Agent327]

Well I blame UK and US for setting Kosovo precedent as well as lack of reaction during War in Georgia (in 2008 - yes it both was during Bush term, but Obama's reset policy towards Russia came soon after, and he also validated Bush's stance on Kosovo)
And yes I blame USA and UK for lack of reaction to Russia's untrustworthiness, (e.g. lack of economic sanctions or at least announcement of plans to export gas to Europe), which in turn makes UK and USA also untrustworthy and in addition unreliable
(inb4 Domen's post about Yalta Conference and Western Betrayal)

So Russia is not responsible for its own untrustworthiness because there is a precedent? It seems to me you are twisting yourself like a contortionist just to put the blame for Russia's untrustworthiness on anybody but Russia itself. But everyone is entitled to their opinion - except Crimea, ofcourse.

 

[AdamCrock]

Mrdab must be on a Kremlin payroll to spread propaganda on the net

 

[mrdab]

So Russia is not responsible for its own untrustworthiness because there is a precedent? It seems to me you are twisting yourself like a contortionist just to put the blame for Russia's untrustworthiness on anybody but Russia itself. But everyone is entitled to their opinion - except Crimea, ofcourse.

Where I claimed that Russia is not responsible for its actions? I only claimed that Western hypocrisy & spinelessness empowered current Russian gov to take this course of action.

And I am critical of both Russia and USA (and other countries as well)

Mrdab must be on a Kremlin payroll to spread propaganda on the net

As much as Formy is on Tel Aviv's payroll

Also speaking of people on Kremlin's payroll this one is almost as good as Blair calling for intervention in Syria - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Gerhard-Schroeder-backs-Putin-on-Ukraine.html

 

[Tahuti]

As much as Formy is on Tel Aviv's payroll

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. Formaldehyde was all it took for me to become Pro-Israel instead of indifferent to the whole ordeal. I was already mildly sympathetic towards the Maidanists, though again, Formy convinced me that the Maidanists were the way to go thanks to his attempts to discredit that view.

 

[AdamCrock]

Do You guys sincerly believe that propaganda is spread throughout this forums ? I perceive CFC as a bastion, better yet ! A Citadel ! of free thought and un-influenced ideas which came from individuals, not governments or secret agencies and their point of view. (Well maybe with the exception of Aleksey_aka_Al) Am I wrong ?

 

[Light Cleric]

FYI I am available at a fair price to be on someone's payroll to accuse others of being on someone's payroll for accusing someone of being on someone's payroll.

 

[Domen]

Interesting math formula:

I perceive CFC as a bastion, better yet ! A Citadel ! of free thought and un-influenced ideas

So Bastion or Citadel?:

Spoiler :

Link to video.

"Rampart" is "Bastion" in Polish-language version:


Link to video.

Citadel is much more dramatic, just like CFC.

 

[red_elk]

Mrdab must be on a Kremlin payroll to spread propaganda on the net

Hey, CFC is my territory for spreading Kremlin propaganda.

 

[Verbose]

I keep thinking that sooner or later the Russians will try some regime change — possibly something in the Ukranian vein.

 

[Tahuti]

Do You guys sincerly believe that propaganda is spread throughout this forums ? I perceive CFC as a bastion, better yet ! A Citadel ! of free thought and un-influenced ideas which came from individuals, not governments or secret agencies and their point of view. (Well maybe with the exception of Aleksey_aka_Al) Am I wrong ?

Of anyone, I think Aleksey_aka_Al is one of the least influenced by governments. He is a very consistent anti-globalist to the point of disliking Putin.

 

[Agent327]

Where I claimed that Russia is not responsible for its actions? I only claimed that Western hypocrisy & spinelessness empowered current Russian gov to take this course of action.

Rest assured: Russia's current and recent behaviour is entirely in line with that of Soviet and czarist Russia. It has little to do with empowerment by "Western hypocrisy & spinelesness", as you claim.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Are the EU and the US bitter rivals?

Are the EU and Russia "bitter rivals"?

Why do you seem to think all this hyperbole is necessary?

The entire reason for the whole thingy was Yanukovich government freezing the EU association treaty talks. Azarov, Yanukovich's prime minister, officially explained that he considered the EU demands so far to be unprofitable for Ukraine.

And yet here was Yanukovich apparently doing all he could to push it through.

On 3 September 2013 (at the opening session of the Verkhovna Rada after the summer recess) President Yanukovych urged his parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine will meet the EU criteria and it can sign the Association Agreement in November 2013.[8]

On 18 September the Ukrainian cabinet unanimously approved the draft association agreement.[63]

Yet it continued to be resisted by the Parliament.

On 21 November 2013 the Verkhovna Rada failed to pass any of the six motions on allowing former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko to receive medical treatment abroad, which was an EU demand for signing the association agreement.[10][11] (The same week Tymoshenko had stated that she was ready to ask the EU to drop the demand for her freedom if it meant President Viktor Yanukovych would sign the association agreement.[65]) The same day a Ukrainian government decree suspended preparations for signing of association agreement; instead it proposed the creation of a three-way trade commission between Ukraine, the European Union and Russia that would resolve trade issues between the sides.[10] Prime Minister Mykola Azarov issued the decree in order to "ensure the national security of Ukraine" and in consideration of the possible ramfications of trade with Russia (and other CIS countries[66]) if the agreement was signed on a 28–29 November summit in Vilnius.[10]

 

[Tahuti]

Rest assured: Russia's current and recent behaviour is entirely in line with that of Soviet and czarist Russia. It has little to do with empowerment by "Western hypocrisy & spinelesness", as you claim.

Disclaimer: Only the West can be hypocritical and spineless. That's because it is run under inferior systems of governance known as capitalism, a result of the West's subversion by Zionists and Feminists.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Quoted by Formaldehyde
The same day a Ukrainian government decree suspended preparations for signing of association agreement... Prime Minister Mykola Azarov issued the decree in order to "ensure the national security of Ukraine" and in consideration of the possible ramfications of trade with Russia and other CIS countries

The protesters blamed both Azarov and Yanukovich for this decree, since the two are politically very close (Azarov was Yanukovich's nominee for the position). After previous pro-Association Agreement declarations on Yanukovich's part, this was seen as a "betrayal".

EDIT: That's what Ukrainian sociologist Ischenko says about this decision and the nature of the protest (translation, original (in Russian) here).

The protests started when Azarov decided to freeze the Association Agreement. This meant that Utopian hopes of many pro-EU Ukrainians (and they are indeed utopian, they think that the agreement will quickly raise living conditions in Ukraine, it's a textbook case of utopian thinking) were stolen from them by Azarov and Yanukovich. The same had happened during the "Orange Revolution", when Yuschenko had been the avatar of this utopia, many "European" hopes of similar nature had been placed on him.

This created a so-called "focal point" — an event, when masses of people thought that they could drastically improve their lives or prevent an incoming catastrophe which was perceived as happening after Azarov froze the agreement.

 

[red_elk]

Very similar to what people thought in USSR, in 1991. "We just need to overthrow <insert name of corrupt leader>, and in a few years we will live like in Switzerland!". Ukraine is going through the same process of disillusionment, as we went through 20 years ago.

 

[Akka]

Rest assured: Russia's current and recent behaviour is entirely in line with that of Soviet and czarist Russia. It has little to do with empowerment by "Western hypocrisy & spinelesness", as you claim.

In fact, it's quite funny (and telling) how pro-Putin rallies actually show off Soviet flags ^^
There is some mighty nostalgia of the "superpower past" that definitely has a very strong influence in the collective Russian psyche and helps to explain a lot of the weird blindness they are showing.

 

[Verbose]

Very similar to what people thought in USSR, in 1991. "We just need to overthrow <insert name of corrupt leader>, and in a few years we will live like in Switzerland!". Ukraine is going through the same process of disillusionment, as we went through 20 years ago.

You still need to fix the basics. How long can the Russians go around being disillusioned, without adressing fundamental problems of its economy and society? The Ukranians are still trying at least.

Russia? Is happy with Putin's style if gradually increasing paternal autocracy? If the trend keeps up in Russia, that Putin has set it on, around 2020 I expect Russia too look a bit like Francist Spain in the 1970's, except Orthodox rather than Catholic, including the poor economy.

Basic problem now is that even if the EU and US do squat about Russia, Russia is still clearly inserted into the western global financial system. All that needs to happen there to make Russia hurt is a bunch of private sector local decisions that Russia looks like it just became a riskier proposition to invest in. That will see capital fleeing Russia, investment not going into Russia, credit costs hiking upwards, the currency deprecating, etc. Since Russian GDP growth is already poor as it is, it's relatively brittle to this kind of uncertanity about it.

If the EU and US actually do something, it's likely to get worse.