Why are antiracists so... racist?

Do antiracists have a discrimatory world view?

  • Damn right! They don't care the least about actual, true racism!

    Votes: 11 78.6%
  • That's not true! The western world is the greatest problem!

    Votes: 3 21.4%

  • Total voters
    14
That's a problem of class, not race.
Perhaps, a thing can be, to a greater or lesser extent, not equally except where it is, caused by or related to or both of two or more other things.

Perhaps I need to qualify everything exhaustively.

Yeah, but that's what is required to achieve the goal of equal outcome, you have to discriminate and keep people from the group that is ahead from achieving purely on the basis of the fact that they're part of the group that is currently as a whole ahead of the curve, otherwise you literally can't equalize things.

You either still have not understood that, or you just want to have your cake and eat it, too.

You could make this shallow argument about any "redistribution" or efforts people would mistake as redistribution. You could make it against dealing with class issues.

You can't abolish slavery without taking the property of slave owners. As Traitorfish said, that can prove unpopular with some people.
 
How about the many policies already in place that already form and enforce racism?

I call BS. If a policy is actually colorblind, it will not and can't give racist results as a result of the policy. If you're still seeing stratifications, the source is not the policy and the actual source is the problem.

The real comedy is if you think that's what colorblind policy achieves.

I didn't claim that though, just that in using such policy you know the policy itself isn't racist. It should be obvious that changing one thing isn't a magic potion. If you don't like the results a colorblind policy gives (a reasonable stance), it's better to start asking why the results are uneven despite no consideration of race in the equation and start dealing with those factors.

Theoretically, perhaps not, but practically

Yeah, I was arguing in principle via a scenario we're not going to see in the near future. That said, I mentioned #2 myself above with the "strong case to do this". Unless as a society we're cool with watching people die despite their best efforts, we're going to wind up with at least some of that.

In a good society one hopes thievery would and could be prevented by the people.

Even in our own society, some forms of taking assets against the will of the owner are deemed okay or even socially admirable, while others are considered thievery and evil. The only determinant of the distinction is the collective perspective of said society (there is no absolute morality to define a "good" society, "good" is a construct of said society), which is not constant. To prevent thievery in its entirety (or reskinning some forms) you'd have to start getting to transhuman modifications on everyone or it's not going to happen...and who gets to make the choice of good and bad there :p?

Until of course that (very near, should we play our cards right) point at which resources are so plentiful and their production is mechanized that they no longer require human labor to produce.

That would be fantastic if done across the board...literally everyone could just do whatever they want with sufficient resources to live comfortably all the time. If we get there great; income inequality would largely be irrelevant if we're able to just give everyone resources far above sustenance. It kind of makes a lot of the $$$ driven arguments in the thread moot though and nobody in their right mind would be against this kind of outcome, so I won't spend a lot of time on it for now.

So let's get right down to it. Race-based affirmative action in, for example, college admissions, leading to a higher proportion of black college students, according to you "does not make the situation better or less racist"? I don't think we should take seriously your ideas of how to make the situation better or less racist, then.

I could say the same thing about your perspective. Typing that kind of garbage does nothing for discussion.

Assuming I assign any significant value to college on the whole that wouldn't be better served by trade schools, if the proportion of black people is lower than expected under colorblind policy then we have evidence of an underlying problem. Rather than shove less qualified candidates into positions, I would rather find out why they're less qualified under fair measures and correct that. If that sounds too idealistic, then we're going to deal with the imbalance forever.
 
I call BS. If a policy is actually colorblind, it will not and can't give racist results as a result of the policy. If you're still seeing stratifications, the source is not the policy and the actual source is the problem.

You misunderstand my point. I'm saying, there are already de jure policies and de facto operations of politics, society, and economy that target POC, and these mechanisms are already in place in the US. If we suddenly started creating policies that try to enforce total colorblindness, or without acknowledging the very real disparities between white communities and COC, then it would become impossible to affect change with the policies and systems already in place that are oppressive along the lines of race. Only through directly dealing with the racist policies and systems, which requires admitting and discussing the fact that they are racist, which requires acknowledging the power of race as a social structure in America, can we meaningfully affect change against those systems with policy at all. I think that doesn't seem likely anyway, and support other means of combatting racism, but for the sake of discussion about the ineffectiveness of colorblind policies I should make this point. The perception of weakness of colorblindness comes not from some type of undue obsession with race that us SJW pinko cultural Marxists have, but rather the incredibly important and necessary role that race ALREADY plays in politics, economy, and society.

I didn't claim that though, just that in using such policy you know the policy itself isn't racist.

The racism of colorblind policies moreso has to do with the fact that, by completely failing at dealing with racism, because it is already so prevalent in everything, they are like a distraction, and in that way a detraction, from legitimate anti-racist action.

It should be obvious that changing one thing isn't a magic potion. If you don't like the results a colorblind policy gives (a reasonable stance), it's better to start asking why the results are uneven despite no consideration of race in the equation and start dealing with those factors.

Dude that's the point of what everyone has been saying here. We already know why the results of colorblind policy are uneven, and it's because colorblind policy not only is ineffective at dealing with, but specifically ignores, the racism already present and pressing in American social systems.

Yeah, I was arguing in principle via a scenario we're not going to see in the near future. That said, I mentioned #2 myself above with the "strong case to do this". Unless as a society we're cool with watching people die despite their best efforts, we're going to wind up with at least some of that.

And yet in the world society we see a child die of starvation every few seconds while Western supermarkets throw away literal tons of food every year. We do live in a society where we're cool watching people die despite their best efforts. This is already the condition we live in, we in the West are just privileged enough not to have to directly face it in our everyday lives.

Even in our own society, some forms of taking assets against the will of the owner are deemed okay or even socially admirable, while others are considered thievery and evil. The only determinant of the distinction is the collective perspective of said society (there is no absolute morality to define a "good" society, "good" is a construct of said society), which is not constant. To prevent thievery in its entirety (or reskinning some forms) you'd have to start getting to transhuman modifications on everyone or it's not going to happen...and who gets to make the choice of good and bad there :p?

Capitalists are often (strangely) quite open to invoking moral relativism once the moral superiority of economic collectivism becomes obvious. My response to this argument is usually that I acknowledge morality is relative, but that I choose to subscribe to probably the most mainstream form of morality, which says that life, equality, and Liberty are the most important and desirable things that a society should supply.

That would be fantastic if done across the board...literally everyone could just do whatever they want with sufficient resources to live comfortably all the time. If we get there great; income inequality would largely be irrelevant if we're able to just give everyone resources far above sustenance. It kind of makes a lot of the $$$ driven arguments in the thread moot though and nobody in their right mind would be against this kind of outcome, so I won't spend a lot of time on it for now.

You'd be surprised. We already have a global agricultural surplus, and within a couple decades most hard labor in the manufacturing and agricultural fields could be realistically mechanized. There are those people though who nonetheless fight for capitalism because it is personally more beneficial for them.
 
I would rather find out why they're less qualified under fair measures and correct that. If that sounds too idealistic, then we're going to deal with the imbalance forever.

This isn't hard to find. If you support large-scale redistribution of wealth from (mainly rich) white people to (mainly poor) black people then we're in agreement; looking at the world as it is today, does that sound "idealistic"?
 
Okay. I'll concede that and point out that Nazism and Stalin were also divisive to reject any implications that this statement is useful to the discussion on either side. I should have left it out since it doesn't add anything.

It doesn't change the reality that adding racism to racism does not make the situation better or less racist.
And perhaps you're right.

But that doesn't make "moral cowardice is actually a good thing" a convincing way to frame your argument.
 
But that doesn't make "moral cowardice is actually a good thing" a convincing way to frame your argument.
How are policies set to be as fair as possible moral cowardice?

Only through directly dealing with the racist policies and systems, which requires admitting and discussing the fact that they are racist, which requires acknowledging the power of race as a social structure in America, can we meaningfully affect change against those systems with policy at all.

If you have actual policy like I described and the outcomes aren't as anticipated on a wide scale, there is a systemic reason for it you need to find and address. If that disparity is down a racial line, that's pretty solid evidence you have a problem somewhere that's race based. I'm saying that also.

But you're mistaken about affecting change. You can trace cause and disincentivize illegal practices or eliminate the reason a population subset is consistently underprepared. I thought it would be self-evident that this would necessarily conflict with the current racial social structure...

The perception of weakness of colorblindness comes not from some type of undue obsession with race that us SJW pinko cultural Marxists have, but rather the incredibly important and necessary role that race ALREADY plays in politics, economy, and society.

If you accept that to be the case, it is inane to tackle the policy (which is inherently fair) as opposed to those other factors (which are obviously not). Nothing you set on the policy end matters under such a scenario. You could even make a case that using non-colorblind policy allows the current power structure to maintain itself while sweeping that crap under the rug at a relatively low cost to them more easily. "Look, we're not only being fair, we're helping you out"...You can find paraphrases of that from corporate tops regarding this issue pretty easily.

The idea that the rare fair policy is actually racist is not coherent.

it's because colorblind policy not only is ineffective at dealing with, but specifically ignores, the racism already present and pressing in American social systems.

It's irrational to expect colorblind policy to address issues separate from colorblind policy, and it is incoherent to identify cause then ignore the cause and call fair policy a failure. Deal with the cause, where the system is not fair.

And yet in the world society we see a child die of starvation every few seconds while Western supermarkets throw away literal tons of food every year. We do live in a society where we're cool watching people die despite their best efforts. This is already the condition we live in, we in the West are just privileged enough not to have to directly face it in our everyday lives.

"Their society, not ours" indeed. Though we allow it in our own on a much smaller scale and look away. It's when you have to look at it that it's a problem after all. Bit tangential though, it's relatively obvious that when it comes to people not important to them, every single policy maker and the overwhelming majority of voters have consistently avoided bothering to optimize along human rights utility. This is a matter of altering human nature. You down with that one? I might be, if we have a way of doing it without screwing ourselves.

Capitalists are often (strangely) quite open to invoking moral relativism once the moral superiority of economic collectivism becomes obvious.

I will always invoke moral relativism until I'm given evidence to use something else, because absolute morality is a farce based on the evidence we (don't) have. There is no evidence for absolute morality existing and basing decisions on assumptions of it is dangerous territory as a result (doing X because it's an "absolute good" is roughly as intelligent and useful as doing X because fhwharglpes), despite proponents of it decrying the concept of relative morality. Morality is a human construct. It is our choice to care for other humans and there's precious little if anything we've observed aside from other humans that assign it any value...maybe pet animals.

which says that life, equality, and Liberty are the most important and desirable things that a society should supply.

Unless you can transhuman everyone to be equal, equality is a pipe dream and you are necessarily implying that it is okay to take assets away from people against their will so long as the mainstream agrees it's "good". I consider that notion abrasive and inconsistent with humans in their present form, so I will argue against present mainstream conventions.

At least we agree on life and liberty.

You'd be surprised. We already have a global agricultural surplus, and within a couple decades most hard labor in the manufacturing and agricultural fields could be realistically mechanized. There are those people though who nonetheless fight for capitalism because it is personally more beneficial for them.

I don't see how access to increasingly cheap resources is necessarily in conflict with capitalism. I would go so far as to assert that anybody against such advancement is regressive independent of their stated economic preferences.

If you make this stuff cheap enough, it's going for pennies or has so little wealth cost that it's more efficient to feed people so they can spend wealth with higher value no?

This isn't hard to find. If you support large-scale redistribution of wealth from (mainly rich) white people to (mainly poor) black people then we're in agreement; looking at the world as it is today, does that sound "idealistic"?

How has that large-scale redistribution of wealth fared to this point? We're not in agreement at all obviously. Giving people sustenance while creating barriers (education, information control, stratification/class warfare, dependence on that sustenance) to get out of the situation not only hasn't worked, it doesn't work in principle.
 
How are policies set to be as fair as possible moral cowardice?
If you think you've found a policy that is both absolutely fair and universally non-controversial, then you're either the greatest political operator in world history or you haven't really thought this through.

The history of racial justice is not one of happy majorities. It is one in which majorities accept unpopular measures out of necessity, because the alternative has become impossible if not unthinkable. Why should we imagine that it would be different now?
 
If you think you've found a policy that is both absolutely fair and universally non-controversial, then you're either the greatest political operator in world history or you haven't really thought this through.

I see no reason to assign value to whether or not it's controversial (you're the one that just illustrated that divisiveness isn't a useful measure).

I'd also be interested in how we determine "fairness" in an absolute sense. It's relatively easy in a categorical sense, because you can remove that category from consideration and thus at least at the policy level remove bias based on said category. If we use mainstream or even most non-mainstream standards for "fair" within the framework of a given category or set of categories we can do it.

To illustrate, it is perfectly possible to implement a colorblind policy that screws over women or men. Let's not confuse "fair" in the framework of racism or any other fixed category with "fair" in absolute terms that don't exist.
 
If you have actual policy like I described and the outcomes aren't as anticipated on a wide scale, there is a systemic reason for it you need to find and address. If that disparity is down a racial line, that's pretty solid evidence you have a problem somewhere that's race based. I'm saying that also.

Neat, agreement.

But you're mistaken about affecting change. You can trace cause and disincentivize illegal practices or eliminate the reason a population subset is consistently underprepared. I thought it would be self-evident that this would necessarily conflict with the current racial social structure...

The practices that make up racism in America are not illegal, and the reasons that POC are "undeprepared" are not either. They are built into the system of government and economics over America in a very deep way. Obviously addressing this is in fact the only way to combat racism.

If you accept that to be the case, it is inane to tackle the policy (which is inherently fair) as opposed to those other factors (which are obviously not). Nothing you set on the policy end matters under such a scenario. You could even make a case that using non-colorblind policy allows the current power structure to maintain itself while sweeping that crap under the rug at a relatively low cost to them more easily. "Look, we're not only being fair, we're helping you out"...You can find paraphrases of that from corporate tops regarding this issue pretty easily.

You don't have to convince me that policy is ineffective when dealing with systemic socioeconomic issues. However, arguing that colorblind policy-- meaning a policy that ignores race-- is somehow a better way to address racial issues is a bit silly.

The idea that the rare fair policy is actually racist is not coherent.

If the entire machine that the policy applies to is racist, maybe it's coherent. I don't necessarily think colorblind policy worsens racism, but when it is added on to a gigantic racist machine it's not exactly helping racism.

It's irrational to expect colorblind policy to address issues separate from colorblind policy, and it is incoherent to identify cause then ignore the cause and call fair policy a failure. Deal with the cause, where the system is not fair.

That's the goal bro

"Their society, not ours" indeed. Though we allow it in our own on a much smaller scale and look away. It's when you have to look at it that it's a problem after all.

This is true, there is starvation in the West as well as elsewhere but we just do a better job of keeping it out the sight and therefore the mind of the people who would do something about it. Police "clean" homeless people off the main streets here in the US, and the impoverished communities where starvation might be too big a problem for those within the community to ignore it are thoroughly isolated from the rest of the country.

Bit tangential though, it's relatively obvious that when it comes to people not important to them, every single policy maker and the overwhelming majority of voters have consistently avoided bothering to optimize along human rights utility. This is a matter of altering human nature. You down with that one? I might be, if we have a way of doing it without screwing ourselves.

Hmmm back to human nature, are we? I think circumstance and culture have more to do with how humans act than some innate feature of human existence. So if you change those conditions, and therefore alter the culture, people will generally act in whatever way their society encourages. Shown in Nazi Germany, shown in Indigenous North American protosocialism.

I will always invoke moral relativism until I'm given evidence to use something else, because absolute morality is a farce based on the evidence we (don't) have. There is no evidence for absolute morality existing and basing decisions on assumptions of it is dangerous territory as a result (doing X because it's an "absolute good" is roughly as intelligent and useful as doing X because fhwharglpes), despite proponents of it decrying the concept of relative morality. Morality is a human construct. It is our choice to care for other humans and there's precious little if anything we've observed aside from other humans that assign it any value...maybe pet animals.

Yes, morality is indeed relative, so there's no point arguing to change your outlook if at the basis of what forms your outlook our values are fundamentally different. For example...

Unless you can transhuman everyone to be equal, equality is a pipe dream and you are necessarily implying that it is okay to take assets away from people against their will so long as the mainstream agrees it's "good". I consider that notion abrasive and inconsistent with humans in their present form, so I will argue against present mainstream conventions.

The "assets" of an individual exist only by the goodwill of the society. If morality is relative, I can invoke the moral calculation I have made that tells me that anything an individual would deprive another individual of, when the first has plenty, is at its essence a thievery of the highest degree.

Furthermore, when I say equality I don't mean to the degree that bodily modifications need to be made. People are born equal-- although I guess that's just more moral relativity. Inequality exists only once the material product is distributed unequally.

At least we agree on life and liberty.

Without equality, neither can exist.

I don't see how access to increasingly cheap resources is necessarily in conflict with capitalism. I would go so far as to assert that anybody against such advancement is regressive independent of their stated economic preferences.

I would certainly argue that this does conflict with capitalism. The capitalist structure of economics works only insofar as people must sell their labor to have things, and if things are made free this is not necessary anymore. Free food = no more labor to exploit "purchase" = capitalism collapses.

If you make this stuff cheap enough, it's going for pennies or has so little wealth cost that it's more efficient to feed people so they can spend wealth with higher value no?

This is a defense of post-scarcity capitalism, right? Literally asking, I don't really understand this sentence
 
How has that large-scale redistribution of wealth fared to this point?

Since wealth redistribution for the past several decades has actually been from black people to white people, I don't believe the assumptions behind this question are accurate.
 
How has that large-scale redistribution of wealth fared to this point? We're not in agreement at all obviously. Giving people sustenance while creating barriers (education, information control, stratification/class warfare, dependence on that sustenance) to get out of the situation not only hasn't worked, it doesn't work in principle.

Redistribution by itself is not a good solution, though it is a necessary one practiced everywhere. Taxes are a form of redistribution. Not necessarily from the top to the bottom of the social scale, but generally so (because the bottom cannot afford paying taxes anyway). Rents are a form of redistribution (those unmistakably from the bottom to the top). Profits are in many cases a form of redistribution similar to rents (we'd have to distinguish trade profits, capital profits, and so on, but you get my point I believe). Redistribution does work when it is applied consistently over time. The problem is that it creates both political resistance and political dependence, and thus it may end up overturned. It may be a means to get a quick fix on a bad situation, but more is necessary.

Personally I think that social democrats (americans would call them liberals?) in the past have had more success when they put their emphasis on rewriting the economic rules, rather than doing redistribution. Such basic thinks as breaking up monopolies, offering state produced goods (again, social housing) as a means to lower private rents, and so on. But even that was abandoned after the 80s. So even these were vulnerable to being undermined.
 
Perhaps, a thing can be, to a greater or lesser extent, not equally except where it is, caused by or related to or both of two or more other things.

Perhaps I need to qualify everything exhaustively.
No, it would most certainly be a problem of class, because we're talking about a hypothetical scenario where we've achieved colorblindness, remember? People are no longer discriminated against because of their race, so the problem here is that they're members of the lower class - or to maybe say it differently: they are members of the lower class because of the racism of the past, but right now their problem is only that they're members of the lower class, and that upwards mobility is severely lacking.

So that's what you'd fix in that hypothetical, upwards mobility, because it's a good thing for all poor people, not just the black ones.

You could make this shallow argument about any "redistribution" or efforts people would mistake as redistribution. You could make it against dealing with class issues.

You can't abolish slavery without taking the property of slave owners. As Traitorfish said, that can prove unpopular with some people.
Yeah, you could make that argument about almost anything, the difference is that in both examples that you've given you're comparing people who have a lot to people who have little. Slaves vs. Slave owners, people with a lot of money giving more taxes to support infrastructure for everybody, etc. There is a moral framework backing these actions, even if they prove unpopular with some people, or even if some people don't agree that that framework is really moral.

In your example, you want to disadvantage people who have little - poor, white people - in favor of other people who also have little - poor, black people. And still purely on skin color I might add, just to achieve an equality of outcome. That's not moral in ANY framework. That's discrimination based on race.

The real goal must be to find ways to implement upwards mobility in a way that actually helps poor black people as much as it helps poor white people.
 
In America white people were relatively disadvantaged when black people were given the vote, by decreasing the power of their individual votes. I also think reducing the inequality within a society benefits everyone and increases stability and social cohesion.

And there were a number of other things in your post that I didn't say, don't believe in and don't feel obliged to defend. Please be assured that I do not thing that racism is the only problem that needs tackled.
 
So again, we have plenty of empirical evidence (some of which was discussed in the link you ignored) that colorblind policy is ineffective at addressing racial disparities. So I'm not sure how you can argue that colorblindness is "more efficient", at least not if the problem you want to solve is racial disparity in society (not that you've given any particular indication this is something that you care about or are even aware of).

Colourblind policies don't address racial disparities, but rather than being a failing as you see it, it's actually the point. Unless you place different values on different people's lives, based on what their skin tone is, then it's a complete irrelevance. If people are being harmed by high levels of police violence, then that's a problem to tackle. If poor people are disadvantaged in education, employment opportunities, etc, then that's another problem to tackle.

The best way to tackle a problem is to tackle a problem. I'm not pretending you don't care about any such problems, because you clearly do, but you seem to be far more concerned with making sure every disadvantaged group contains exactly the same racial distribution as every advantaged group as if this is some sort of necessary first step, rather than being the complete irrelevance that it is. Even if you end up with exactly the same numbers of people experiencing exactly the same things, as long as more of them are white you'd somehow see this as an achievement, rather than a complete waste of time. In fact the only reason I could see this as even being a useful first step is that it would at least stop people like you obsessing over it all the time, but I think a far more efficient answer would be for you to just do that voluntarily.

Now obviously if some of the problems people are facing are actively because of their race, then it makes sense for that to be a factor in the solution, but if it's just "black people on average are poorer than white people, so if we want to help poor people then we should give money to black people" then that's just wrong.
 
In America white people were relatively disadvantaged when black people were given the vote, by decreasing the power of their individual votes.

Perfect example of collectivist thinking. There's a "team white" who all want the same thing and a "team black" who all want something different. Well I guess we can't be friends then, so we'd better get on with the race war and settle it once and for all.
 
Perfect example of collectivist thinking. There's a "team white" who all want the same thing and a "team black" who all want something different. Well I guess we can't be friends then, so we'd better get on with the race war and settle it once and for all.

That isn't how I intended my post to be read and I think most people would see that. If you're interested in getting specific clarification then please PM me.
 
Anti-racist is a code word for anti-racist. There's not much else the term could mean.
 
Perfect example of collectivist thinking. There's a "team white" who all want the same thing and a "team black" who all want something different. Well I guess we can't be friends then, so we'd better get on with the race war and settle it once and for all.

These are legal fictions about black and white people. They do not exist in nature. Since original immigration only included people of "free white people with good characters" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790), and 14th Amendment rectified it to add black people in US to be citizens, and many other legal cases about Latino and Asian immigrants. The race was a product of construction of American legal system.
 
That's lovely plarq. Thank you for your contribution.
 
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