2020 US Election (Part 3)

[Angst]

I've watched just one another video by this guy where he argued for options for African-Americans to be better armed because they were susceptible to hate crimes/police brutality and such. I didn't agree because I don't think arming more people isn't a recipe towards more stability. Not because they aren't supposed to defend themselves against injustices past and present, but because I'm worried of how it may be responded to by much bleaker parties. Anyways, it made me rethink my stance on the American arms policy, even if I came to the same conclusion. I think he's an interesting guy. True neckbeard look and his views on gun legislation are far from mine, but he's out there for the little guy and is truly worried about how people can defend themselves against the recently increasing corruption in the US. This was a good video, too. Trump needs to be investigated. He'll probably flee to Russia, but then at least he's gone.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

It's the constant threat of knowing that at any time you could:

* Have your rights totally ignored
* Be physically attacked by people who take issue with your very existence
* Having entire political parties dedicated to removing and stripping your rights away, to making your life worse off and too spread vile lies about your demographic.
* Having people you don't even know come up to you and challenge your right to exist and live.
* Having the police ignore your issues at best and at worst treat you like a criminal for no other reason than than their bigotry

For some reason I highly doubt @JPetroski has had to deal with much, if any, of this.

It gets to you, it's a slow war of attrition that is constantly at the back of your mind whenever you leave the house to do everyday stuff; driving, grocery shopping etc.

**** like this causes mental health issues, it can scar someone

 

[Zardnaar]

It's the constant threat of knowing that at any time you could:

* Have your rights totally ignored
* Be physically attacked by people who take issue with your very existence
* Having entire political parties dedicated to removing and stripping your rights away, to making your life worse off and too spread vile lies about your demographic.
* Having people you don't even know come up to you and challenge your right to exist and live.
* Having the police ignore your issues at best and at worst treat you like a criminal for no other reason than than their bigotry

For some reason I highly doubt @JPetroski has had to deal with much, if any, of this.

It gets to you, it's a slow war of attrition that is constantly at the back of your mind whenever you leave the house to do everyday stuff; driving, grocery shopping etc.

**** like this causes mental health issues, it can scar someone

And to help you have to win. Yo do that by not offending people who agree with you 40-90% of the time.

 

[Samson]

Al Jazeera is interviewing Kamala Harris's uncle in India. They asked "What does it mean to you", he said "Not much, I wish I had been Trumps Uncle. Kamala is honest, if I had been Trumps uncle I would have got very rich".

 

[Hrothbern]

I am completely unsurprised that the presidents of Mexico and Brazil have so far not commented on Biden's victory.
Both are rich men who deny environmentalism, deny coronavirus and just straight-up go against their countries' indigenous pre-Columbian populations. They also have both bowed down to US interests to humiliating levels.

Never forget.

That's still better than congratulating Trump on Wednesday with "his victory".

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/07/slovenia-prime-minister-trump-call-election/

 

[amadeus]

He must have been congratulating him for getting that vaccine out before election day as promised!

 

[JPetroski]

but also a "stay out of trouble"... WTH is that about? Other than... frankly, racism.

Could be. Let me answer some other questions and then you tell me if you still think it was.

Tell me how many times the police have pulled you over only to tell you to "stay out of trouble."

To only be told that? Never. I've never interacted with the police when they didn't have an actual reason to interact with me. If a cop pulls you over for no other reason than to say this, I'd agree you're on to something.

Have you ever been told by the police to "stay out of trouble"?

Yes, actually, often. It's something cops say frequently. I wasn't counting, because it didn't bother me, but I've definitely heard this a lot. If a cop says this to you during an interaction that you actually deserved to have, I would consider giving them the benefit of the doubt if that phrase was the only reason you thought there was something "off" about the situation. Near as I can tell, it might as well be the police version of "goodbye."

For some reason I highly doubt @JPetroski has had to deal with much, if any, of this.

First of all, I brought up dead kids in cars as my example. You're bringing transgender stuff into this. Secondly, that something does occur does not, in and of itself, mean that it really occurs as often as the person talking about it claims, or is as realistic of a threat to them as they claim. Third, you're probably not the right example for this kind of thing. I would imagine you get in more disputes than some of your peers. You're hardly a control sample.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

First of all, I brought up dead kids in cars as my example. You're bringing transgender stuff into this. Secondly, that something does occur does not, in and of itself, mean that it really occurs as often as the person talking about it claims, or is as realistic of a threat to them as they claim. Third, you're probably not the right example for this kind of thing. I would imagine you get in more disputes than some of your peers. You're hardly a control sample.

First of all you don't know jack**** about me okay, the reason im so aggressive online is because i'm so timid in real life, i have to be to avoid any more attention than my appearance brings me. This is my main outlet, to voice my frustations about living in a country, in a state that views me at best as 2nd class citizen, as a freak to oppress and denigrate, as a curiousity to gawk at and laugh at, as the butt of a joke to every tired, old transphobic punchline.

Second of all this is you:

You are the white dude quibbling over statistics, even as minorities give you their real life, lived experiences, because it's all theoretical for you, you don't know have to wake up worrying about today being the day someone decides to harrass or assault you on the basis of characteristic you have no control over, your lack of empathy, your lack of decency, your lack of humanity shows with every comment you attempt to post about statistics and trying to delve into the maths; if you bothered to look it up, you'd find that for years minority communities have been harrassed and attacked, to the extent that some (specifically the African-American community) literally make jokes about being stopped by police for driving a decent car, to LGBTQ people having to hide their very identity in the hopes of not being attacked.

I feel bad for @Sommerswerd, he gave you his lived experiences and you just didn't give a **** about it and i could probably give you some of mine and you'd attempt to rationalize it away.

Because you Just. Don't. Care.

 

[JPetroski]

First of all you don't know jack**** about me okay

I only have the interactions you provide me, and I don't believe this is an online persona. The internet has been around a long time. Plenty of people before you tried to claim they're totally different in real life. I doubt that someone who flies off the handle as easily as you when they have the opportunity to sit, read, pause, and reflect before typing wouldn't also be just as enraged in real life when they have to address stuff in the spur of the moment. I just don't buy it. Sorry.

You are the white dude quibbling over statistics,

I mean I call it trying to stay objective, but OK.

I feel bad for @Sommerswerd, he gave you his lived experiences and you just didn't give a **** about it and i could probably give you some of mine and you'd attempt to rationalize it away.

I don't know. I don't feel like I'm being rude to Sommerswerd, but I also don't think he and I are talking about the same thing. I'm talking about exaggerations towards the extreme end of the spectrum and he brought up a bunch of situations on the "lower" end of the spectrum (which I put in quotes, to hope to avoid offending--I'm not implying they aren't significant issues). That I'm not engaging him on those shouldn't imply "I don't give a **** about it." It just means it's not really relevant to my point. My point isn't that black people don't go through all the things he mentioned, I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole. He has that victory; I don't contest.

 

[Hrothbern]

As overview for the timeline until inauguration:

What remains to be done before the new president is appointed?
This is on the agenda between now and the day the new president is appointed:

* For the time being, votes are still being counted. In the states of Nevada and Minnesota, votes can still come in until November 10, in Ohio even until November 13. It is not expected that there will be many: the votes must be sent on or before November 3. The state of Georgia has announced a recount because the number of votes between Biden and Trump is too close.
* Between November 10 and December 8, states will certify the votes cast and the winner will be officially determined. At the same time, the 538 electors are designated by the winning party in that state. California has the only and later deadline for this trial: December 11.
* December 8 This date is seen as the “safe harbor,” according to CNN. Except in re-counting states, by this time all disputes must be resolved and the winner determined.
* December 14 The electors cast their votes in sixfold. In many states, the electoral votes run the risk of a fine if they differ in their vote from that of the people, but this does not happen often. The votes have nine days to reach Washington.
* January 3 New members of the House of Representatives and the Senate are sworn in.
* January 6 The votes of the 538 electors are counted.
* January 20 The inauguration of the new president.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2020/11/07/vs-verkiezingsblog-2020-vijf-a4019206

 

[amadeus]

I only have the interactions you provide me, and I don't believe this is an online persona.

We all wear masks... metaphorically speaking. Well, literally speaking too now.

The online experience gives some of us a sense of liberation, an outlet as @Cloud_Strife says, to be different from ourselves in a sense. I certainly felt that way when I was, many moons ago, aggressively political and got into heated exchanges with folks.

I guess I did in person too, at that time. Anyway, the point I’m trying to get to is that she’s got a legitimate point about that aspect of it. I feel there are some parallels, and I don’t know how much I can rush to judgments on things here anymore.

At the end of the day, it’s a web forum. Granted, it provides me with countless hours of stimulation I don’t get elsewhere, but I’m personally detached in many ways about serious issues that cannot be seriously redressed on this forum, and find it more of a catharsis and a place to share ideas without the threats of social ostracizing.

I don’t know. I just thought I’d chime in. I don’t know if there’s any useful info to be gleaned from it, but since we’re sharing personal experiences that’s kind of the way I felt about it.

 

[Kyriakos]

"Trump is a true american...: He got Covid19, Lost his Job, and now he's getting Evicted."

 

[Verbose]

I don't know. I don't feel like I'm being rude to Sommerswerd, but I also don't think he and I are talking about the same thing. I'm talking about exaggerations towards the extreme end of the spectrum and he brought up a bunch of situations on the "lower" end of the spectrum (which I put in quotes, to hope to avoid offending--I'm not implying they aren't significant issues).

Yes, well the problem with statistics and probability and human beings is that if it doesn't happen, then the risk was clearly 0%, but if it does happen, then the risk suddenly shoots up to 100%.

If your point is that the US is a society that carefully cultivates its fears, then I would tend to agree.

Whether you would also agree that the US while cultivating fears of several and varied kinds, while strenuously denying doing anything of the sort, I don't know? But I think Trump himself was – is – a pretty good vector for a bunch of them, and a poster-boy for total denial of everything of the sort.

 

[JPetroski]

@amadeus, you can believe her if you want. I don't. I wouldn't call it a rush to judgement in her case, either.

Yes, well the problem with statistics and probability and human beings is that if it doesn't happen, then the risk was clearly 0%, but if it does happen, then the risk suddenly shoots up to 100%.

Risk is the possibility of loss. Risk is only present before something happens. You can not have risk after something occurs, only certainty.

If your point is that the US is a society that carefully cultivates its fears, then I would tend to agree.

Yes, pretty much. We're also a society that leaps to conclusions based on those fears. Not a good thing most times.

Whether you would also agree that the US while cultivating fears of several and varied kinds, while strenuously denying doing anything of the sort, I don't know?

I don't deny that any of the extremes (read: specifically, for this argument, a situation involving a death) happen, I just don't think they happen as often as the narrative implies. I brought up the car with kids example because people were running around asking "why does this keep happening!?" as though it was some sort of epidemic when in actuality it was pretty normal for the year and not happening in that great of number in the first place.

Now, you say something like that and others are quick to dogpile you and say that any instance is too many, and I must be a terrible person for not being outraged by it, but I don't have that much rage in me, sorry. I mean, what should I really do about the kids in cars example? Should I insist that the auto industry be forced to put in kid sensors in every vehicle due to 39 deaths a year? I have little kids in car seats, I feel like I can talk about that one without being part of a meme. I think having the auto industry do that for that reason would be stupid. Not sure I'm a monster by looking at the stats and saying... "Yeah... We can retain that risk."

 

[aelf]

And to help you have to win. Yo do that by not offending people who agree with you 40-90% of the time.

I'm surprised Cloud hasn't just asked you to eff off. This is such a douchebaggy, mansplainy response to someone who feels scared and anxious about their safety and well-being. Pretty much like most of your recent posts.

 

[Sarin]

First of all you don't know jack**** about me okay, the reason im so aggressive online is because i'm so timid in real life, i have to be to avoid any more attention than my appearance brings me. This is my main outlet, to voice my frustations about living in a country, in a state that views me at best as 2nd class citizen, as a freak to oppress and denigrate, as a curiousity to gawk at and laugh at, as the butt of a joke to every tired, old transphobic punchline.

Second of all this is you:

You are the white dude quibbling over statistics, even as minorities give you their real life, lived experiences, because it's all theoretical for you, you don't know have to wake up worrying about today being the day someone decides to harrass or assault you on the basis of characteristic you have no control over, your lack of empathy, your lack of decency, your lack of humanity shows with every comment you attempt to post about statistics and trying to delve into the maths; if you bothered to look it up, you'd find that for years minority communities have been harrassed and attacked, to the extent that some (specifically the African-American community) literally make jokes about being stopped by police for driving a decent car, to LGBTQ people having to hide their very identity in the hopes of not being attacked.

I feel bad for @Sommerswerd, he gave you his lived experiences and you just didn't give a **** about it and i could probably give you some of mine and you'd attempt to rationalize it away.

Because you Just. Don't. Care.

And the same goes the other way. Everyone has their own issues and you know nothing about them.

Life throws **** in everyone's way. Quite often there's little we can do about it, but very much about how we let it affect how we treat others. If you pass it along the way you do, it might make you feel relieved for a bit, but eventually you'll be doing nothing but working yourself up, and in the end, everyone will so full of it that it'll blow up in your face.
That's a lesson I've learned the hard way, not just some pseudo-Zen bull****.

And there's one thing I have to remind you of. As much as you don't want to, you are a representative of your minority. The impression you make affects more people than just you.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

These people are so high on their own supply of "logic" and being detached from the actual experiences of minorities that they think they can distil it to "objectivity" or "logic" which is absolute bull when alot of the discrimination is based purely upon people's emotive dislike of those that are different.

There is nothing "logical" about beating up someone on the basis of their sexuality, race or gender, there is nothing "logical" about discriminating against swathes of society because you have a personal, emotive issue with their existence.

If someone from a differing background, one that you don't have any personal experience living as, tells you that they've faced discrimination, be it physical, verbal or legal and you tell them "let's look at the stats instead" you're being an ass and you're tacitly trying to downplay what they and many others in america go through daily.

And the same goes the other way. Everyone has their own issues and you know nothing about them.

Life throws **** in everyone's way. Quite often there's little we can do about it, but very much about how we let it affect how we treat others. If you pass it along the way you do, it might make you feel relieved for a bit, but eventually you'll be doing nothing but working yourself up, and in the end, everyone will so full of it that it'll blow up in your face.
That's a lesson I've learned the hard way, not just some pseudo-Zen bull****.

And there's one thing I have to remind you of. As much as you don't want to, you are a representative of your minority. The impression you make affects more people than just you.

I somehow doubt @JPetroski has been dragged out of a toilet and beaten, pulled aside by a cop and warned in no uncertain terms on the basis of his race or told that he should go back to his "own country" despite being as american as anyone else.

I want to make something clear; I don't care what others think of me, I don't care if they dislike my rhetoric, I don't care. Since coming out and living as my true self I've had so much goddamn hate from people who claim they're nothing more than innocent, god-fearing americans unfairly marginalized by liberals, I have been told to my face that i am in the same league as someone who would rape or murder a child and that i belong in hell, despite having been abused myself, I have been told to kill myself, refused service and harrassed in stores, beaten and attacked outside of them and I've had the police ignore these because to them I'm just some deviant.

I don't need someone like @JPetroski insinuating that my experiences don't matter or downplaying them, I am the way i am because of them, it doesn't exactly take a genius to see why i'm so combative online and meek offline.

And one last thing; if you base how you view transpeople on how i come across, you're using that as an excuse to justify your underlying feelings on them; transpeople come in all shapes and sizes, some are good, some are not, some are nice, some are complete *******s.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think it's ironic that in the west so much strife took place for a large percentage of people to be rid of the religious primary sin and guilt, only to see competitors peddling a replacement for such primary sin and guilt.
As Sarin said, everyone has their own problems and one should realize that "my problems matter more and you should care because reasons" is not an argument.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I think it's ironic that in the west so much strife took place for a large percentage of people to be rid of the religious primary sin and guilt, only to see competitors peddling a replacement for such primary sin and guilt.
As Sarin said, everyone has their own problems and one should realize that "my problems matter more and you should care because reasons" is not an argument.

You're so disengenous, I never said my problems matter more, I said that they matter and shouldn't be written off or downplayed.

And I'm sorry that you still don't seem to get that the abuse suffered at the hands of bigots has been directed and fanned by conservatives; that the entire reason it took decades for us to even get to the point where members of the lgbtq where no longer consider pederasts and predators was because conservatives had no issue attacking a group they viewed as intrinsically lesser than then, but somehow you think pointing out where it came from is akin to "primary sin and guilt", look this happened because people didn't give a crap and i dont' want to live in a society where such a thing is possible and despite what others say, even with biden, I still think that's a distinct possibility

 

[Kyriakos]

You're so disengenous, I never said my problems matter more, I said that they matter and shouldn't be written off or downplayed.

And I'm sorry that you still don't seem to get that the abuse suffered at the hands of bigots has been directed and fanned by conservatives; that the entire reason it took decades for us to even get to the point where members of the lgbtq where no longer consider pederasts and predators was because conservatives had no issue attacking a group they viewed as intrinsically lesser than then, but somehow you think pointing out where it came from is akin to "primary sin and guilt", look this happened because people didn't give a crap and i dont' want to live in a society where such a thing is possible and despite what others say, even with biden, I still think that's a distinct possibility

I get all that. What I don't get is why I have to think of your problems instead of mine. It's not like I ever harmed you in any way.
Even if I end up having less problems, or more manageable ones, why do you think I should then just be on the look-out for other problems (of other people, randomly) to help with?
At best, people help some few others they care about, eg the very few real friends they may have. I don't get where this supposed communal responsibility or guilt is to stem from.