2020 US Election (Part One)

[Hygro]

This is of course what I mean when I accuse the Democrats of trying to set racial identity at odds with national identity.

Making accusations like I did can be problematic. The accusation could be false, unfalsifiable and/or unverifiable and thus unfair, and such a generalization as cannot carry a valid argument. But along comes some help. At least one datum of proof, and it only took 8 minutes to arrive, unasked. It's as if I described a behavioral phenomenon: trying to set racial identity at odds with national identity, and then handed the guy a script of how to behave in order to prove my point. Currently there is a meme going around, npc, based on the idea that the left has extremely poor self-awareness. This is why. Stuff like this happens constantly.

It's funny watching people recite their off the shelf ideologies call other people NPCs.

I don't mean you. But I do mean many of your allies.

What's the mechanism for nonvoters to vote in Democrats?

 

[Bootstoots]

Warren's best contribution are her pre-politician lectures. They're amazing. If you can get someone to listen to one, they'll at least start understanding the underlying crisis.

I hate the way Warren is without a doubt both the Democratic candidate I most want to be president and the Democratic candidate who seems to have the worst "getting people to vote for her" skills. I want her in the debates for quite a while to provide ideas to whomever wins, and then to either stay in the Senate or become Treasury or Commerce secretary - wherever she can have the most influence.

 

[El_Machinae]

She is a bit of a technocrat. Like, a good sense of where the problem is, but enough of a technocrat that if her underlying theory is 'wrong', it could make things worse. I mean, not 'worse' like 'deny global warming and wealth gap' worse, but still. That said, I think that the current Fed is a little too dangerous in their technocratic ways, and they loooooove giving money to the top.

I stand by my appreciation of Warren: her pre-politicians lectures. I don't think they're required watching, but I think they're essential watching to be an informed voter.

 

[onejayhawk]

I hate the way Warren is without a doubt both the Democratic candidate I most want to be president and the Democratic candidate who seems to have the worst "getting people to vote for her" skills. I want her in the debates for quite a while to provide ideas to whomever wins, and then to either stay in the Senate or become Treasury or Commerce secretary - wherever she can have the most influence.

El Machinae calls her "a bit of a technocrat." That is genuine talent at understatement. It's like calling Trump a bit of a loose cannon. Warren is one of the few people with the chops to make socialism work. That said, she's a college professor in a political job, see Gingrich, Newton. The Republicans have not shot themselves in the foot with a major scandal for her benefit.

J

 

[Berzerker]

I give her crap over her cultural appropriation but I wouldn't mind Warren in a position to watch Wall St

 

[Tristan_C]

it just seems odd to try to find national values in a Democracy that is all about the Freedom of Speech? Just seems wrong.

That does seem odd, now that you mention it. It's a good point. Although, the US is a republic, and freedom of speech itself is a national value.

Touching on aversion to change, I am not averse to change which I think can strengthen us. Some of my beliefs have changed over time. I poo-poo Marxism not because it is change, but because it is cancer.

What's the mechanism for nonvoters to vote in Democrats?

A large amount of time, since 1965 specifically, jus soli, random events, everyone acting exactly according to their nature and incentives. And after some years, California flips, Arizona flips, Texas on the way. It was not a conspiracy.

But having observed how things transpired, perhaps this is why there are now organizations funding the migrant caravans and coaching them on how to overwhelm the border and get through. Maybe it explains why the former administration took in the Dreamers. There are obviously perceived rewards for these efforts. The acceleration has given Trump the wherewithal to deem it a crisis, and an invasion. It's true.

I didn't have race in mind.

That sounds likely.

If you to want my thoughts on values quote 2451, second paragraph.

'American values' is only on the same spectrum as 'Marxist values' if the person declaring them to be dissimilar is also thinking in terms of identity politics.

I heard a weird story a couple years ago. Apparently there is some ongoing study out there finding that the presence of a US flag "primes" people for Republican viewpoints. Makes them more receptive, less cynical, etc. It started a partisan spat over whether flags should be allowed to fly at polling places.

Oh, come on, El_Machinae, we both know that ‘Marxist’ is a smear word he can use for dog-whistle tactics without being accused of racism. He doesn't have a clue what it is.

Been hearing the "you don't know what it is" line for my entire life. It was probably devised immediately after the publication of Capital. Read it and you'll see why. Maybe even before. Maybe the dinosaurs even anticipated the publication and grunted it at each other. No historical model is too stupid for Capital.

Marxism is a huge blob, like love. You cannot describe it no matter how hard you try, but you can always identify it when you see it.

 

[Zkribbler]

Marxism is a huge blob, like love. You cannot describe it no matter how hard you try, but you can always identify it when you see it.

J. Edgar Hoover said Martin Luther King was a Marxist, so apparently he couldn't.

 

[Zkribbler]

I caught Washington Governor Jay Inslee on a CNN town hall today. First Dem who is giving straight answers.

One girl asked about the technical problems in recycling some plastics. He said, "I wish I had a good answer for you on that, but I don't. But I do have people working on it."

OMG, an honest politician!

 

[metalhead]

I hate the way Warren is without a doubt both the Democratic candidate I most want to be president and the Democratic candidate who seems to have the worst "getting people to vote for her" skills.

She beat an incumbent Senator who had a 57% approval rating. This would not appear to be an assertion supported by the evidence.

 

[Lexicus]

J. Edgar Hoover said Martin Luther King was a Marxist, so apparently he couldn't.

Martin Luther King was basically a Marxist by the time he got shot. And of course liberals of the day dropped him like a hot potato after he started taking principled positions like opposing the war in Vietnam and calling for economic democracy, an end to poverty, etc.

 

[El_Machinae]

I heard a weird story a couple years ago. Apparently there is some ongoing study out there finding that the presence of a US flag "primes" people for Republican viewpoints. Makes them more receptive, less cynical, etc. It started a partisan spat over whether flags should be allowed to fly at polling places.

I don't doubt it. The Republicans are noticeably better at creating patriotism. We see this when the Democrats try to explain how the country was essential for the wealth-building that they're now trying to tax. People have natural instincts when it comes to 'earned' that Democrats have a hard time changing when they appeal to patriotism. Trump was very easily able to appeal to patriotism in order to justify tariffs: which is essentially using the government to protect Americans from themselves. It's standard leftism, but that will be discussed decades from now. Right now, it's "Alt-Right". Pre-Trump, I'd say the Republicans were better at creating patriotism. I don't think they were better at creating utility from it, but that's a political discussion.

But there's another weird thing about the American flag. The Confederate flag. It has a much more welcome home in the Republican party than in the Democrat party. And it is very much anti-American. Oh, it's standing up for a subset of 'American values', I'll grant that. It's also representative of anti-American values in another way. This is especially true when viewed with different perspectives.

You've got to remember what a fundamental concern with the current Trump Nation is, even while you continue to criticize identity politics (criticizing it is valuable). There have been a host of parades recently. Many fine people. Many fine people. All with different perspectives. But it is utterly terrifying that swasticas felt welcome on some sides of the marches. You probably didn't make the connection, but upthread you rationalized how a migrant 'dehumanized themselves'. It leaps out. Especially while in a conversation about how the migrant was probably just a working stiff trying to make a buck.

You can understand how phrases like "anti-American values" and "dehumanize themselves" set up warning bells that there's something implicit that's worth resisting? I've listened to the alt-Right's thesis, and I see a lot of what they're saying. The warning sign is that there are certain segments of the population that were easier to convince. The scariest part is that, after hearing the thesis, they viewed Trump as acceptable enough.

By analogy, I'm very interested in the problem of climate change. But if someone proposed a series of solutions, and I noticed that there was a subset of people who were the first to rush to a proposed set of solutions, I'd really look at the implicit biases of those people to figure out what they were seeing that I was missing.

 

[Gori the Grey]

f you to want my thoughts on values quote 2451, second paragraph.

Namely:

like freedom, competition, individualism, and regard for the founding documents

Ok, I'll work with this.

Can't turn attention to it just now, though. But thanks for a straightforward answer.

 

[Lexicus]

Does 'regard for the founding documents' mean "all men are created equal" or "three fifths of all other persons"???

 

[Traitorfish]

Marxism is a huge blob, like love. You cannot describe it no matter how hard you try, but you can always identify it when you see it.

Marxism is a school of thought derived from work of the nineteenth century German political economist Karl Heinrich Marx.

What do I win?

 

[Zkribbler]

Martin Luther King was basically a Marxist by the time he got shot. And of course liberals of the day dropped him like a hot potato after he started taking principled positions like opposing the war in Vietnam and calling for economic democracy, an end to poverty, etc.

"opposing the war in Vietnam," "calling for economic democracy, \" "an end to poverty," Sounds like an RFK stump speech. Were the Kennedys also Marxists?

 

[Lexicus]

"opposing the war in Vietnam," "calling for economic democracy, \" "an end to poverty," Sounds like an RFK stump speech. Were the Kennedys also Marxists?

I just discovered a list of MLK quotes on this issue and it appears I was wrong about the timeline: he was actually flirting with Marxist ideas well before the late 60s. For example this quote is apparently from a 1952 letter to his wife:

“I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic… [Capitalism] started out with a noble and high motive… but like most human systems it fell victim to the very thing it was revolting against. So today, capitalism has out-lived its usefulness.” – Letter to Coretta Scott, July 18, 1952.

Then from the later sixties:

“And one day we must ask the question, ‘Why are there forty million poor people in America?’ And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising questions about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. And I’m simply saying that more and more, we’ve got to begin to ask questions about the whole society…” – Speech to Southern Christian Leadership Conference Atlanta, Georgia, August 16, 1967.

“We must recognize that we can’t solve our problem now until there is a radical redistribution of economic and political power…. This means a revolution of values and other things. We must see now that the evils of racism, economic exploitation, and militarism are all tied together… you can’t really get rid of one without getting rid of the others… the whole structure of American life must be changed. America is a hypocritical nation and [we] must put [our] own house in order.”- Report to SCLC Staff, May 1967.

“The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.” – Speech to SCLC Board, March 30, 1967.

“You can’t talk about solving the economic problem of the Negro without talking about billions of dollars. You can’t talk about ending the slums without first saying profit must be taken out of slums. You’re really tampering and getting on dangerous ground because you are messing with folk then. You are messing with captains of industry. Now this means that we are treading in difficult water because it really means that we are saying that something is wrong with capitalism.” – Speech to his staff, 1966.

Etc, etc.

Please quote something comparable to these sentiments from an RFK stump speech. Bear in mind that it was at RFK's urging that JFK wiretapped King to get evidence of Jedgar's suspicions that King was in cahoots with....Communists

 

[Takhisis]

Been hearing the "you don't know what it is" line for my entire life. It was probably devised immediately after the publication of Capital. Read it and you'll see why. Maybe even before. Maybe the dinosaurs even anticipated the publication and grunted it at each other. No historical model is too stupid for Capital.

Marxism is a huge blob, like love. You cannot describe it no matter how hard you try, but you can always identify it when you see it.

Well, besides the fact that you have already been told what Marxism is, I have to point out that if you cannot describe it then maybe you really just don't know what it is.

If you've been being told that you don't know what it is, haven't you ever bothered to find out what this ‘other’ is?

I caught Washington Governor Jay Inslee on a CNN town hall today. First Dem who is giving straight answers.

One girl asked about the technical problems in recycling some plastics. He said, "I wish I had a good answer for you on that, but I don't. But I do have people working on it."

OMG, an honest politician!

Take cover!

 

[Berzerker]

Does 'regard for the founding documents' mean "all men are created equal" or "three fifths of all other persons"???

Some people didn't think slaves should count toward the census, others did - so they settled on 3/5ths. Which side would you have chosen?

 

[metatron]

Marxism is a school of thought derived from work of the nineteenth century German political economist Karl Heinrich Marx.

What do I win?

As many washing machines as you can carry?

 

[Farm Boy]

Oh el, that's because nobody bothers sorting out the role the grange and other humanitarians played in the generation after the rise of that flag and the shellacing they got in the gilded decades. I realize there is a dick measuring contest to be had in who had it worst and there are better winners to assign it to, but that's sort of beside the point. The meaning changed for some, it didn't for others, and generations pass. Either way, awful things happend, and they will so do. All the more frequently for the micheads.