an abortion thread with no personal attacks

[Lord Gay]

Would that apply to common law marriages where there wasn't a license signed, but they've been filing jointly?

Hadn't really thought about it. The main angle I was going for was that if there's evidence of legal documentation connecting people, such as marriage and perhaps joint tax filing, then that legal connection would carry the financial obligations for the child.

If there's no connection, then the man isn't financially bound to the child, but he also has no say in what happens to it. No taxation without representation... or something.

 

[El_Machinae]

At least here we agree. I have always stipulated that men should be given a choice in these matters. They can either freely decide to help pay for child support, or they can instead pay one half the cost of an abortion. It should then be entirely up to the woman what she wishes to do.

Well, to truly balance it out, he should only be able to avoid child support if he pays for his own uterus getting vacuumed out. Unless you mean that they can choose between 1/2 the abortion OR paying 1/2 the child support. Then yeah, I guess that makes sense.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Well, to truly balance it out, he should only be able to avoid child support if he pays for his own uterus getting vacuumed out. Unless you mean that they can choose between 1/2 the abortion OR paying 1/2 the child support. Then yeah, I guess that makes sense.

What uterus?

 

[El_Machinae]

Exactly

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Exactly

I have no idea what your point is, and I consider myself a reasonably smart person. Perhaps you should try explaining it better.

 

[timtofly]

He was being sarcastic. There is no physical way to avoid paying child support, after the deed has been done. Especially if only the woman gets to choose. Most men would pay for an abortion, if the woman did not want one, just to keep from paying child support. People tend to forget that men also may not want to be burdened with a child either, until they have the means to do so.

 

[El_Machinae]

I have no idea what your point is, and I consider myself a reasonably smart person. Perhaps you should try explaining it better.

Well, the post I was replying to implied (to my reading) that it would be 'fair' if the father offered to paid half the abortion and then wipe his hands of the affair. I'm pointing out that this is not fair, because it's clearly unequally weighted on the woman. She has to pay the other half of $300 (the price of an abortion, thereabouts) AND either go through nine months of pregnancy OR get her uterus vacuumed?

I'm pointing out that 'half the abortion' is not a fair distribution of the consequences.

 

[caketastydelish]

Yes actually, there are slurs for people of all european descent. Just like there are slurs for everyone of (black) African descent, or for eastern asians, or middle easterners, or just about anything else.

Grow a pair? You're hiding behind political correctness, and you're telling me to grow a pair.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Well, the post I was replying to implied (to my reading) that it would be 'fair' if the father offered to paid half the abortion and then wipe his hands of the affair. I'm pointing out that this is not fair, because it's clearly unequally weighted on the woman. She has to pay the other half of $300 (the price of an abortion, thereabouts) AND either go through nine months of pregnancy OR get her uterus vacuumed?

I'm pointing out that 'half the abortion' is not a fair distribution of the consequences.

I never claimed it was "fair" to a woman who decides to go ahead and have the baby if the man decides to not provide child support. But she can spend half the cost of an abortion however she wishes. After all, it was solely her choice to go ahead on her own. She should be financially responsible for that decision, not him.

This was actually how the system worked (minus the half the cost of an abortion part), until the Republicans decided to crack down on "welfare mothers" under Reagan.

 

[Traitorfish]

Yes actually, there are slurs for people of all european descent. Just like there are slurs for everyone of (black) African descent, or for eastern asians, or middle easterners, or just about anything else.

Grow a pair? You're hiding behind political correctness, and you're telling me to grow a pair.

In what sense am I "hiding"? I'm saying "anyone who is offended by the word 'cracker' is an arsehole". It's right there in front of you.

 

[Dachs]

I still haven't noticed any actual crackers in this thread that have been offended by it.

 

[Arakhor]

I always thought that a cracker was one of those crunchy savoury biscuits you ate with cheese.

 

[Mouthwash]

What is a fetus? A fetus is different from a rock or a mushroom in that it has the inherent capacity for intelligence. To illustrate this in a philosophical sense, an unborn person could be compared to a sleeping one. Would the sleeping person not be morally equivalent to a conscious person? Of course not, it would be just immoral to kill him or her under those circumstances.

And if moral equivalence is determined by an aquired property, then "moral equivalence" and human rights comes in varying degrees. This means that those who are more able to exercise their self-awareness are more valuable than those who are less able. It's more plausible to argue that humans have value simply because they are human, not because of some acquired property they may gain or lose in their lifetime.

 

[Traitorfish]

"To illustrate this in a philosophical sense, I'm going to ignore basically all philosophy of conciousness ever"?

 

[El_Machinae]

Yes, human sentience has a value, in and of itself. This is why the person with severe retardation issues might not have as many freedoms as a 'healthy' person, but certainly retains more rights than most animals with similar cognitive capacities.

But to point out that fetuses have an 'inherent capacity for intelligence', and therefore deserve protections, is creates a weird philosophical concern. Bread has an inherent capacity for intelligence, because if you convert the calories in bread through a human digestive system, a decent proportion of those carbon atoms become integrated into a thinking, sentient system.

 

[Traitorfish]

Hell, if you takes an externalist approach, it could even be argued that:

Means giving bread sentience, because the bread is brought however loosely into the network of human cognitive activity.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Well, if we're getting into "what my philosophy defines a fetus as."

Well obviously this life begins at conception thing is bunk. Every person exists before the creation of time, and will exist after the end of it. Right now, all we get are analogous imitations of that person.

The question then becomes "Is what I'm looking at a good imitation of a person." I think it's fair to say, if you entered a fetus into a "construct an imitation Traitorfish" contest, you'd lose, probably to a robo-marxist and a dog trained to think very hard whenever you tell it to sit.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Hell, if you takes an externalist approach, it could even be argued that:

Means giving bread sentience, because the bread is brought however loosely into the network of human cognitive activity.

So what does that make wrestling?

 

[Farm Boy]

But to point out that fetuses have an 'inherent capacity for intelligence', and therefore deserve protections, is creates a weird philosophical concern. Bread has an inherent capacity for intelligence, because if you convert the calories in bread through a human digestive system, a decent proportion of those carbon atoms become integrated into a thinking, sentient system.

We are the borg. We will assimilate all your bread. Resistance is delicious.

I suspect this is cutting it a bit too fine to be of much meaning except to students of philosophy or students of Mary Jane. The bread grew from the dirt man, the dirt has feelings too. It's all connected and stuff.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yes, it's all connected and an incredible portion of it is fungible.

But sentience requires fairly specific circumstances. Potential is very different from actual