Brexit Thread V - The Final Countdown?!?

[Traitorfish]

At the very least, one single UK constituency does.

Well, the local party organisation does, and the constituency has returned an unbroken line of Tory MPs since 1910. What they actually think of Boris may not enter into the equation in any direct way.

Because Scotland becoming independent from the UK would somehow cause less turmoil than the UK becoming independent from the EU?

It's vanishingly plausible that a party which has been campaigning to remove Scotland from the UK since 1934 may have some clearer idea of what the transition process will look like than a party which removed Britain from the EU by accident.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Brexit is just something funny that happens to other people.
Warning: Some nasty words !

 

[innonimatu]

Nah, I'm not discussing semantics on an online forum, sorry. I just assumed that free trade and "taking control of our border" also includes goods and not only people. Btw. will they control the lorry drivers or let them roll through as well?

I just find it very imaginative of you to frame the UK saying "so we just will not check the goods at our new shiny border for a year" as a win instead of what it is, a concession.

Then you were very uninformed. It is not semantics, it is about the facts.

Had you paid attention you'd know that all the noise done about border control was centered on movement of people and employment, not on goods. Goods and tariffs, producing locally, would have been a good platform for some left-wing party, for a "left exit". But Labour backed remain and abstained from defending that. Only very small groups of people did make that argument, I don't think anyone with a seat in Parliament did... The right-wing parties did talk about doing trade deals independently, but their position was for "freer trade".

It's vanishingly plausible that a party which has been campaigning to remove Scotland from the UK since 1934 may have some clearer idea of what the transition process will look like than a party which removed Britain from the EU by accident.

I don't know. They seem currently more interested in framing their former leader for "sexual assault" than in preparing for a scottish independence anytime soon.

 

[Senethro]

I don't know. They seem currently more interested in framing their former leader for "sexual assault" than in preparing for a scottish independence anytime soon.

More conspiracy crap? You're full of it.

 

[innonimatu]

More conspiracy crap? You're full of it.

And you will learn nothing throughout your life. Now spare me the crappy one-liners for personal attacks.

 

[Takhisis]

Well, the local party organisation does, and the constituency has returned an unbroken line of Tory MPs since 1910. What they actually think of Boris may not enter into the equation in any direct way.

This does not speak particularly well of his constituents.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I don't know. They seem currently more interested in framing their former leader for "sexual assault" than in preparing for a scottish independence anytime soon.

Not sure why you think Salmond is being framed. The SNP has certainly not been enthusiastic about prosecuting him.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

This Mogg video is a bit of a hoot:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1092740115716362241

And Mogg’s answer was also very good:

“My more pedantic followers will be distressed that this video ends “alright” rather than “all right”, otherwise it is a clever spoof.”

 

[Kyriakos]

If you count Corbyn as a ‘Brexiteer’ then I am sure he would want to do that. But no, the last thing Britain would ever do (under anyone but Corbyn) would be to close our borders to the EU (or, indeed, anywhere). It is just not in our DNA.


Talking of former UKIP leader Jeremy Corbyn, here he was, sounding off about the EU a few years ago:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rankenstein-European-empire-21st-century.html

Proof that Corbyn hates the EU: Video shows the Labour leader branding the bloc a 'military Frankenstein' and the 'European empire of 21st century'

A snip from the above:

He was addressing an audience of Irish activists the year after the country rejected the Lisbon Treaty by 53.4 per cent to 46.6 per cent.

Mr Corbyn warned them that he expected officials to refuse to accept the result – and to keep on fighting against moves to augment the EU's power.
'Don't scrap your posters, don't recycle them, because you're going to need them for a third referendum,' Mr Corbyn said.

'Because I've got a feeling they're going to keep on voting until they get the answer they want.'

Woops. Sorry guys. I just got mixed up between Farage and Corbyn for a minute there. Easily done, I am sure you would agree, when they are talking about the EU.

It is even easier to mix farridge with his tory m8s though, "innit"

 

[Senethro]

And you will learn nothing throughout your life. Now spare me the crappy one-liners for personal attacks.

I've learned that a healthy mind requires that you don't feed it rotten information. Where do you get your conspiracy nonsense from?

 

[Silurian]

Donald Tusk "‘I ve been wondering what a special place in hell looks lke for people who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely’

 

[Hrothbern]

Donald Tusk "‘I ve been wondering what a special place in hell looks lke for people who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely’

I can understand that frustration, but I would never ever consider to say that in his position. It's adding nothing to the situation, in which case every diplomat or lawyer says nothing of substance if at all.

The backlash in the newsmedia ofc soaring... juicy news...


I find it interesting to see in the newsmedia how that precise quote of Tusk aimed at Nigel Farrage, Boris Johnson, et al, having not even a sketch of a plan to carry it out safely (as leaders) gets a life on its own, and the distinction between them and a random Leave voter is removed.


The BBC simply states in the headline: Place in hell for no-plan Brexiteers.

The Guardian almost the same headline: "those who backed Brexit with no-plan deserve special place in hell"

The Daily Mail needs surprising many steps to reach finally that Tusk's hell was for the ones who fought to get the UK out of the EU.
(the lack of a plan no longer mentioned as condition to deserve hell)
1. headline: Fury as Tusk says there is a 'special place in hell' for Brexiteers who backed Leave with no 'safe' plan for Irish border (the Irish border part of the quote invented by the DM)
2. subheadline: EU Council President Donald Tusk used an event with Leo Varadkar to slam people who campaigned for Leave... what the 'special place in hell looks like' for them with 50 days to go
3. start of article text: Donald Tusk poured petrol on the Brexit negotiations today as he raged that there is a 'special place in hell' for those who fought to get the UK out of the EU.

Suggestive simplifications removing context and conditions
Like you do with a football match against an arch rival.

 

[Silurian]

It is very undiplomatic but for a diplomat to say that must have a diplomatic point. Despite what the UK states the EU is not going to change its position, it is most likely too late for the EU to agree a position anyway.


His statement about those who promoted Brexit having no plan is correct. They saw that the Scotland's referendum plan was picked apart and they did not want that to happen to the Brexit plan. No Brexit plan, nothing to defend.

 

[Hrothbern]

It is very undiplomatic but for a diplomat to say that must have a diplomatic point. Despite what the UK states the EU is not going to change its position, it is most likely too late for the EU to agree a position anyway.


His statement about those who promoted Brexit having no plan is correct. They saw that the Scotland's referendum plan was picked apart and they did not want that to happen to the Brexit plan. No Brexit plan, nothing to defend.

Yes
A strong statement was needed indeed, because of the lack of time there is meanwhile for small velvet glove steps, and to encourage May to deal with her home base first, before going coming Thursday to Brussels with hard-Brexiteer pipedreams, and therefore empty hands, to make any chance to achieve something in Brussels.
And in the good guy, bad guy game, Tusk is usually the one to pick up the role as the bad guy. Normally by being precise and direct.

At one minute before twelve, a hard jab from him was imo certainly justified at the leading promoters of Brexit, not at the grassroots unknown people, but at the leaders with authority positions, whether politicians, newsmedia, thinktanks, etc.
Putting the blame on them for the impossible mess and the consequences.

But that hell... I just don't like publicly polarising top-down into such emotions... they tend to get a life on their own.
Anyway... I see from various reactions in the UK that the statements from Tusk are there also supported.
For example by Stephen Gethins of the SNP, by Mary Lou McDonald of Sinn Fein. Let's see how it goes.


And lessons learned from that Scotland referendum... yes, you are right there...too bad the Brexiteers learned from it... and Cameron not... not even bothering to take responsibility to outflank that... not even a more precise referendum in main directions as common sense.


From what I think to know and understand so far Cameron is the one really to blame. Not only with austerity, but also in general governing a country and a people. He picked up the bottle with the genius.
Ipsos is doing polls on the UK, including this update of Jan 2019, also measuring the main concerns of the UK people. The EU as concern was at its lowest point just after Cameron became PM in 2009.
The second graph incl the other main concerns polled, to get it in context.
https://www.slideshare.net/IpsosMORI/ipsos-mori-issues-index-january-2019

 

[innonimatu]

Not sure why you think Salmond is being framed. The SNP has certainly not been enthusiastic about prosecuting him.

Why do I think that? A court decided that, and threw out the scottish government's attempt to frame him:

Nicola Sturgeon has defended her government’s handling of sexual harassment claims against Alex Salmond after its investigation was thrown out in court.
In a humiliating climbdown, the Scottish government admitted in court on Tuesday that an inquiry it launched last January into harassment allegations against the former Scottish first minister was unlawful and “tainted by apparent bias”.
...
It emerged in August that senior Scottish government officials had investigated allegations against Salmond by two female civil servants and had then passed on its dossier to Police Scotland, which has since launched a separate criminal inquiry into the allegations.
...
It had breached its own procedures by appointing an official, Judith MacKinnon, to conduct an apparently independent investigation even though she had already met and counselled both complainants.

Not only was Sturgeon enthusiastic about prosecuting him, she got a personal friend to do so. And defended her even after the court ruled her actions wrong. And is still fighting to keep the documentation about the case hidden. And in a fit of spite at being blocked sought then to use the police to keep up the pressure? I don't know exactly what Salmond did, but his successor in the SNP seems very keen on having him politically dead.
I wouln't be suspicious if I hadn't already noticed that sexual assault accusations are the last resort of character assassinations tactics to get rid of inconvenient politicians. Remember how DSK was evicted from the IMF and the way was opened for "austerity" worldwide?

 

[AmazonQueen]

Why do I think that? A court decided that, and threw out the scottish government's attempt to frame him:



Not only was Sturgeon enthusiastic about prosecuting him, she got a personal friend to do so. And defended her even after the court ruled her actions wrong. And is still fighting to keep the documentation about the case hidden. And in a fit of spite at being blocked sought then to use the police to keep up the pressure? I don't know exactly what Salmond did, but his successor in the SNP seems very keen on having him politically dead.
I wouln't be suspicious if I hadn't already noticed that sexual assault accusations are the last resort of character assassinations tactics to get rid of inconvenient politicians. Remember how DSK was evicted from the IMF and the way was opened for "austerity" worldwide?

The court didn't decide anything about what Salmond was accused of, that is still being investigated. It didn't decide they had tried to frame him.The Scottish government mishandled the proceedings but I suspect that was because Sturgeon didn't want to seem to be protecting her old friend and mentor. You're keen to see conspiracies everywhere but sexual assault allegations need to be investigated even when the accused are influential.

 

[Kyriakos]

Yes
A strong statement was needed indeed, because of the lack of time there is meanwhile for small velvet glove steps, and to encourage May to deal with her home base first, before going coming Thursday to Brussels with hard-Brexiteer pipedreams, and therefore empty hands, to make any chance to achieve something in Brussels.
And in the good guy, bad guy game, Tusk is usually the one to pick up the role as the bad guy. Normally by being precise and direct.

At one minute before twelve, a hard jab from him was imo certainly justified at the leading promoters of Brexit, not at the grassroots unknown people, but at the leaders with authority positions, whether politicians, newsmedia, thinktanks, etc.
Putting the blame on them for the impossible mess and the consequences.

But that hell... I just don't like publicly polarising top-down into such emotions... they tend to get a life on their own.
Anyway... I see from various reactions in the UK that the statements from Tusk are there also supported.
For example by Stephen Gethins of the SNP, by Mary Lou McDonald of Sinn Fein. Let's see how it goes.


And lessons learned from that Scotland referendum... yes, you are right there...too bad the Brexiteers learned from it... and Cameron not... not even bothering to take responsibility to outflank that... not even a more precise referendum in main directions as common sense.


From what I think to know and understand so far Cameron is the one really to blame. Not only with austerity, but also in general governing a country and a people. He picked up the bottle with the genius.
Ipsos is doing polls on the UK, including this update of Jan 2019, also measuring the main concerns of the UK people. The EU as concern was at its lowest point just after Cameron became PM in 2009.
The second graph incl the other main concerns polled, to get it in context.
https://www.slideshare.net/IpsosMORI/ipsos-mori-issues-index-january-2019

View attachment 517081

View attachment 517084

Surprise as hack politician makes hack political comment.

 

[Yeekim]

I wonder if Haddock and Halibut are also somehow mixed up in this.

 

[Silurian]

Why do I think that? A court decided that, and threw out the scottish government's attempt to frame him:



Not only was Sturgeon enthusiastic about prosecuting him, she got a personal friend to do so. And defended her even after the court ruled her actions wrong. And is still fighting to keep the documentation about the case hidden. And in a fit of spite at being blocked sought then to use the police to keep up the pressure? I don't know exactly what Salmond did, but his successor in the SNP seems very keen on having him politically dead.
I wouln't be suspicious if I hadn't already noticed that sexual assault accusations are the last resort of character assassinations tactics to get rid of inconvenient politicians. Remember how DSK was evicted from the IMF and the way was opened for "austerity" worldwide?

The link you provided shows no evidence that Sturgeon was seeking to have Salmond prosecuted, you seem to be confused between two invesrigations.

The Scottish Parliament as an employer has a duty to investigate allegations of harassment between its staff. As an employer they can displine staff if they are in breach of their contract of employment by for example harassing other staff. It would appear that the Scottish Parliament as an employer did not follow procedures properly in its investigation. Salmond took his employer to court and won in a civil court.


Meanwhile Salmond has been arrested and charged following a separate Police investigation.

From The Guardian

Salmond, who appeared at Edinburgh sheriff court for a private hearing on Thursday afternoon, was charged with 14 offences: nine charges of sexual assault, two of attempted rape, two of indecent assault and one of breach of the peace.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...mond-scotlands-former-first-minister-arrested

Edit fixed quote tags

 

[Hrothbern]

I wonder if Haddock and Halibut are also somehow mixed up in this.

Nothing wrong with a round of sportsmanlike fighting, with or without

as long as