[RD] Clinton vs. Trump - USA Presidential race.

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Trump's preferred "solution" in Iraq would have been to leave a permanent armed colony to "take the oil." Not only is he an interventionist, but his brand of intervention is specifically Fascist.

Wouldn't that also mean that Bush was a fascist? How about the USSR when they "occupied" Afghanistan? What about every colonial empire ever?

I wouldn't even call that "interventionism", just plain old imperialism. You occupy a country in order to exploit its natural resources and human capital.
 
The man views violent dictators as examples to be emulated. He fetishises violence and places his personal cult above all else in terms of gauging his success; I would argue his poll numbers are the only thing he's concerned with in this campaign. He blames "the other" for all the country's ills and places getting rid of them as the primal issue, to take precedence over all others.

I view him as a Nazi specifically. His demonization of immigrants is right out of the Nazi playbook, as is his scapegoating them for all of the country's ills. He claims that he is the only person that can solve the country's problems, which doesn't portend much in the way of deference to our constitutional government. And he is at times isolationist, and at other times suggesting a decades-long illegal colonization of Iraq that would cost more to carry out than the oil would be worth.

It's textbook Nazism.

Nazism and xenophobia are not interchangeable at all. The former is a concrete ideology, the latter simply a fear and demonization of that which you consider "other".

The most integral part of the Nazi ideology was rampant antisemitism, which I don't see with Trump one bit. I also don't see how the Nazis ever opposed immigration, especially considering that there was barely any immigration to speak of in Germany in the 30's. If anything the Nazis wanted to forcibly immigrate parts of Czechoslovakia and Poland as well as Austria.

I also don't see any of the "völkisch" mentality in him aside from his fake patriotism. Remember, the Nazis aren't the same people as "white supremacists" are today, there is a big difference between "white skin tone" and "being of aryan origin". Actually, only after the war errupted, the Nazis demonized "the eternal Anglo", often calling them subhuman in their propaganda videos, which was a complete 180 of their previous politics, which hoped for a German and British friendship. They did the same thing with the Russians after the Hitler-Stalin pact was annulled. Suddenly the slavs were subhuman and the entire east of Europe was "Lebensraum".

I think you see where I am going with this. Aside from the Jews, who are painted as the eternal enemy after the "Dolchstoßlegende", Nazi racism has been extremely opportunistic and was used merely as a tool in most cases.

Trump on the other hand strikes me as a legitimately xenophobic, islamophobic arsehole.

Furthermore the ideology of national socialism directly opposes free market capitalism while Trump is a self declared "businessman".

For all these reasons I think you are misusing the term "Nazi" heavily. I think even calling someone who is not an anti-semite "Nazi" is incorrect, but with Trump it's incorrect on so many levels.

Edit: Sorry for the double post.
 
I don't wish. Runaway races are un-interesting.

According to you, it's been a foregone conclusion ever since Clinton became the nominee (and probably before). Why would anything change now?
 
yung.carl.yung said:
They did the same thing with the Russians after the Hitler-Stalin pact was annulled. Suddenly the slavs were subhuman and the entire east of Europe was "Lebensraum".

I think you see where I am going with this. Aside from the Jews, who are painted as the eternal enemy after the "Dolchstoßlegende", Nazi racism has been extremely opportunistic and was used merely as a tool in most cases.

Not much else to say except that this is flat-out inaccurate. The Nazis were incredibly racist towards Slavs for the duration of their existence as a party.

yung.carl.jung said:
Furthermore the ideology of national socialism directly opposes free market capitalism while Trump is a self declared "businessman".

This is a laugh. Trump is not remotely a 'free market capitalist', he's a businessmen who's relied on government propping his entire career - much like the large business conglomerates under the Third Reich.
 
He rails against it, at least.

He's not Free Market, though. He's strongly in favor of tariffs. Tariffs being one of the strongly suspected reason why the Great Depression spiraled so badly. He was in favor of Eminent Domain, which isn't Free Market either.

He doesn't really understand economics, we know that because his 'goto' with the American Debt was to default. He probably understands zero-sum finance pretty well; we know that because he considers himself a success, despite the damage he's done to people who've teamed up with him. "Heads I win, tails you lose" can work okay at the individual level. It doesn't scale, even to the national level, though.
 
He doesn't really understand economics, we know that because his 'goto' with the American Debt was to default.
Well, it worked for him, didn't it.

He clearly believes there is no difference between private and public debt. Which means he is quite the ordinary Republican after all.
 
Not much else to say except that this is flat-out inaccurate. The Nazis were incredibly racist towards Slavs for the duration of their existence as a party.
This. As far as I know, the only case where Nazis opportunistically changed their attitude towards particular nation, was Japan, after it joined Axis.
 
He was in favor of Eminent Domain, which isn't Free Market either.

Everyone who's ever held office has been in favor of that. Man, you guys are desperate. It's going to be a 'Great' November.

The hag is collapsing in public and the left is resorting to right-wing dog whistles that their base couldn't care less about. That and Trump's a 'Nazi' lmao. Keep going with that one. It sooo helps the left's lack of credibility. Pretty soon being a closet Democrat is going to be a pre-requisite in order to vote left.

Hey, maybe you guys can get Hillary stuffed? It wouldn't be the first time Dems voted for a dummy.

She's just dying to win.
 
Not much else to say except that this is flat-out inaccurate. The Nazis were incredibly racist towards Slavs for the duration of their existence as a party.

The Nazis were racist towards anyone who was not of perceived "aryan" descent. Still, slavs do much better than Jews and Africans:

Nazi propaganda depicted Eastern Europe as racially mixed "Asiatic" that was dominated by the Jews with the aid of Bolshevism.[25] The Nazis considered some people in Eastern Europe to be suitable for Germanization (they were presumed to be of German descent); if they were considered racially valuable they were to be re-Germanized and forcefully taken from their families to Germany and raised as Germans.[22]

Which is probably the best thing that could happen to you as a "non-aryan" under German rule if we are being honest.

Anyway, Hitler denounced the slavs as subhuman as early as 1925 in "Mein Kampf", I am not unaware of that, but at the same time tries to keep relations with the USSR up until he is ready for the invasion, hence me referring to the Hitler-Stalin-pact.

This is exactly what I meant by "opportunist racism"; There are too many of these instances than one can count, like for example this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Turkish_Non-Aggression_Pact

Clearly Hitler didn't think too highly of the Turks as a race either, but if they're friendly, suddenly they fit into the ideology. Racial relations are molded depending on who was an ally at the time.

"Hitler, preparing to invade the Soviet Union, diverted attention to make sure the southern or Balkan flank was secure. Rumania was under heavy pressure, and was forced to cede 40,000 square miles of territory with 4 million people to the USSR, Hungary and Bulgaria; German troops came in to protect the vital oil fields (Germany's only source of oil besides the USSR). Romania signed the Axis Pact and became a German ally (November 1940).[124] So too did Hungary (November 1940) and Bulgaria (March, 1941)."

While most of these eastern-European countries are mostly "ethnically slavs", they were seen as and called "aryans", just because they became allies.

The Japanese allies, as well as the Chinese, were declared "honorary aryan", which is a completely meaningless term, but was needed to somehow ideologically justify them not being lesser humans. I quote:

"While only certain Jewish individuals were granted the status (of honorary aryan), the term was ascribed to the entire Japanese and Chinese people. Adolf Hitler bestowed the title upon the Japanese following the Anti-Comintern Pact on Communism (signed in 1936), and it seemed that they were granted the status not simply for economic, military, or political reasons, but more so because of their racial integrity. In The Political Testament of Adolf Hitler, Hitler stated:

Pride in one's own race – and that does not imply contempt for other races – is also a normal and healthy sentiment. I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own. They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them.[5]".

(From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_Aryan#To_the_Chinese_and_Japanese)

Here is a quote in which the a social darwinist "researcher" claims (mixed) South Americans (as you know, many Nazis fled to Latin America after WW2) and certain "Berbers" (how convenient that they were allies) as "true aryans":

"Outside of Europe in North Africa, according to Alfred Rosenberg's racial theories (The Myth of the Twentieth Century), some of the Berbers, particularly the Kabyles, were to be classified as Aryans.[75] The Nazis portrayed Swedes, the Afrikaaners who are white European descendants of Dutch-speaking Boers in South Africa and higher-degree Northern/Western Europeans of South America (mainly from Uruguay, Brazil and Argentina) as ideal "Aryans"

I think I have thoroughly proven the point that the term "aryan" could be described to just about anyone at any point who was friendly to the Nazi regime, while the term "subhuman" was used just as arbitrarily for anyone who was considered an enemy, hence me saying that Hitler's racism was purely opportunistic in its basis, much unlike Trump, who seems like a genuine racist (to me).

This is a laugh. Trump is not remotely a 'free market capitalist', he's a businessmen who's relied on government propping his entire career - much like the large business conglomerates under the Third Reich.

Note that I never called him a free market capitalist at all, I simply said he is a self declared businessman. Not a successful businessman, but certainly not a convinced socialist either.

Now I'm not saying that Nazi Germany was socialist, because it wasn't, but national socialism in its pure form is most definitely socialist. Maybe if it wasn't for the Night of the Long Knives it would have been more socialist, but at this point it is impossible to tell.

This. As far as I know, the only case where Nazis opportunistically changed their attitude towards particular nation, was Japan, after it joined Axis.

Come on now. There were even Jews with the title of "honorary aryan". You cannot possibly be more contradictory than that, no?
 
I agree that they were in some cases opportunistic in their racism (hence my example about Japan), but not entirely. For example, treatment of British and French 'subhumans' in captivity was drastically different from treatment of Slavs, not to mention, Jews.
 
I keep seeing headlines that show Trump is pulling even with or surpassing Clinton in the polls. FiveThirtyEight however shows her still with a commanding lead.

So what's going on? Are there a few outlier polls that the media plays up or is FiveThirtyEight off-base (as they were during the Republican primary)?
 
According to you, it's been a foregone conclusion ever since Clinton became the nominee (and probably before). Why would anything change now?

That's why you play the games. Something unexpected might happen. Unfortunately, the something appears to be pneumonia.

I keep seeing headlines that show Trump is pulling even with or surpassing Clinton in the polls. FiveThirtyEight however shows her still with a commanding lead.

So what's going on? Are there a few outlier polls that the media plays up or is FiveThirtyEight off-base (as they were during the Republican primary)?
538 does not show a commanding lead. It's 68/31, barely 2-1. I think it topped about 87/13 which is about 7-1. Even that is short if commanding.

J
 
I keep seeing headlines that show Trump is pulling even with or surpassing Clinton in the polls. FiveThirtyEight however shows her still with a commanding lead.

So what's going on? Are there a few outlier polls that the media plays up or is FiveThirtyEight off-base (as they were during the Republican primary)?

They seem to be about tied in the polls, except most of the outlier polls are in favor of Clinton.
Also 538's model takes into account older polls (especially the ones with a high number of participants) so it can be slow to react to a change. And reacting quickly to a change in polling result isn't what it's useful for (for that you have poll aggregates like RCP).
 
That's why you play the games. Something unexpected might happen. Unfortunately, the something appears to be pneumonia.


538 does not show a commanding lead. It's 68/31, barely 2-1. I think it topped about 87/13 which is about 7-1. Even that is short if commanding.

J

LOL...but if it gets to 51/49 Trump, count on J to call it over and say he told us so all along.
 
I can see how you all think Hillary "fell" into the van.

She didn't fall.

She was melting.
 
That and Trump's a 'Nazi' lmao. Keep going with that one. It sooo helps the left's lack of credibility.

I can see how you all think Hillary "fell" into the van.

She didn't fall.

She was melting.

Wicked Witch comparisons are more credible than considerations of how nearly Trump's appeals parallel the Nazi's, then?
 
I keep seeing headlines that show Trump is pulling even with or surpassing Clinton in the polls. FiveThirtyEight however shows her still with a commanding lead.

So what's going on? Are there a few outlier polls that the media plays up or is FiveThirtyEight off-base (as they were during the Republican primary)?
Well, it's up to you to choose your preferred source to interpret polls. 538 created a rigorous model a-priori which is not modified along the way. Other news sources tend to mostly analyse polls on the fly, without rigorous standards or at most very simplistic models.

The comparison the Republican primary isn't appropriate, because 538 never used a model for that.

On the other hand, there is a tendency in the media to portray the race as close or "interesting". A common model is to assume Clinton's previous historically strong lead as the normal, so that every gain by Trump can be re-interpreted as a victory for him, even though he is still behind. For example:
538 does not show a commanding lead. It's 68/31, barely 2-1. I think it topped about 87/13 which is about 7-1. Even that is short if commanding.

This pattern of grading Trump on a curve comes into play with the media in many respects. Expect the media to have a very low threshold on what constitutes a successful debate performance by Trump, for example.
 
Wicked Witch comparisons are more credible than considerations of how nearly Trump's appeals parallel the Nazi's, then?

Clearly the hag has a neurological disorder.

This is what stage 4 liberalism looks like.

Moderator Action: A number of your posts contain sexist language, and don't attempt to contribute towards any kind of civil discussion. Banned for a week.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
yung.carl.jung said:
Racial relations are molded depending on who was an ally at the time.

This is correct in that there are examples of the racial policy and 'science' being adjusted to fit political and military realities, but the conclusion you've drawn - that Hitler's racism was 'purely opportunistic' rather than a deep conviction is simply wrong. No historian I'm aware of has drawn that conclusion, because it is clear from Hitler's own writings and the accounts of those who dealt closely with him that he was passionately racist - not merely as a matter of political opportunism.
The 'big picture' of Nazi policy is of a government that could not put down its racist notions long enough to successfully prosecute a war for its own existence. Similarly, it appears Trump can't drop his own bigotry long enough to win an election, but we'll see in November I guess.
 
I keep seeing headlines that show Trump is pulling even with or surpassing Clinton in the polls. FiveThirtyEight however shows her still with a commanding lead.

So what's going on? Are there a few outlier polls that the media plays up or is FiveThirtyEight off-base (as they were during the Republican primary)?

Keep in mind that the 'newsworthy' polls are going to be the ones that tell us that the state of the race is something other than what it presently is. So if Hillary has a lead of a few percentage points, the polls that are disproportionately likely to be picked up by major news outlets are the outliers showing a dead heat/Trump winning and the ones showing Hillary up by ten points, depending on the slant of the outlet.

With Hillary having committed a bunch of unforced errors over the weekend, it's likely that the next wave of polls will broadly show Trump having gained some ground. How much, and for how long that effect lasts, are separate questions that are much harder to predict.
 
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