Coronavirus. The n(in)th sequel.

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I spent a few minutes and looked into the fetal cell problem; the cells used in the testing of both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, for example, originated in Holland in 1973. It is also unclear whether the source was abortion-by-request or a miscarriage, but I’m neither here nor there in my interest of the cells’ origin.

Here’s my thought: if aversion to human suffering is the source of these convictions, how is the millions of deaths brought on by this disease justified versus a single death of unclear origin?

Furthermore, how can one apply these convictions in other ways in the modern world? Much of the infrastructure that we enjoy now was built on the backs of many who suffered in the past—who laid down the railroads? Who mined all the coal? Who worked in the textile factories? Who fought and died to protect liberty in the West? The collective prosperity and knowledge we have today has a dark and unfortunate past—a past that is not necessary to repeat based on some selective moral application.
 
That Conway letter is awesome. I was swinging for the fences and hoping that the first 'big' in vitro Ivermectin/Covid-19 paper was done in human cells, but unfortunately the Vero cells are monkey cells. Same with HCQ. Too bad, because the gloat would have been strong there.

(though I think only Az and Jassen is literally grown in fetal tissue, iirc*. It's been awhile since I actually cared, since this is just another manufactured excuse. I was only researching my Novavax bet)

*This objection I'd understand, even if I don't care myself



If the numbers in an area bear this out (and aren't a result of firing hospital staff), there is some rationale for it, though I wonder if it wouldn't be better served by turning away overage on unvaccinated rather than mandating. This still leaves the choice in their hands, without a conscription equivalent.
My suspicion is that 'firing of hospital staff' is a bugaboo that might be true in some locales but just a talking point in others; our ICU numbers are ICU numbers. If we're understaffed (and our government has worked hard to erode hospital morale), that will show as a change in deaths/case (since there will be poorer service). Some regions will have to fire staff, if they refuse vaccinations. Complicated by refusing to acknowledge previous infection, obviously.

There is no way I'd suggest turning away the unvaccinated from healthcare, unless there was an overwhelming need to do so. That's about as effing regressive as I can possibly imagine, and should probably be a conversation-ender. Our public healthcare system is too worthy of protection to allow such a brutal effort to dismantle its very foundation.
I was also under the impression that hospitalization rate for vaccinated was tiny. Is that not true? If it isn't, and they are also not meaningfully slowing transmission rate, a mandate would have a hard time for different reasons.
Yes, the hospitalization rate is tiny among the vaccinated, but it's not like it's perfect protection ("90%" was the word we all knew over a year ago). People who're old are going to catch it while there's community spread and a portion of them will require hospitalization. Like I said, the number of vaccinated covid-19 patients is comparable to normal flu numbers. Among the vaccinated it's like we're just having a bad flu season, which is normally populated with elderly people for whom the vaccine wasn't sufficient.

Like I said, our vaccinated burden is well-within tolerance and our unvaccinated burden is blowing apart the system.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
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I am atheist, but my understanding is that some are complaining about fetal cell usage (or more accurately, lines descended from fetal cells) in the research/production of the vaccines, which seems to be something that was actually done from what I can tell (at least, government websites don't disagree with the claim: http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/me...vaccine/VaccineDevelopment_FetalCellLines.pdf for example).

The origin is still fetal tissue, though. So if someone rejects taking the vaccine on this basis, and you try saying exactly what you just said as an employer in the US, you are asking to get sued into the ground. Businesses have not had much luck deciding what is or isn't valid in terms of religious belief in this kind of context.

As already pointed out by @Drakle, the usage of human and animal cell lines is so ubiquitous, that you can basically only avoid them if you're a hermit.
Most of these cell lines are also ancient cancer cell lines, so nobody is anymore getting hurt for this, so this point doesn't really stand.

Any modern research in biology will contain cell lines. Also more generic things, like e.g. desinfection procedures will probably be tested at some point with bacteria in cell cultures. Even research on surgery will somewhere contain cell lines. You can't escape it.
 
But you'll notice the burden of proof, here? You're insisting that someone prove that they're safe rather than we prove that they're dangerous. With proper goalposts, the science is fundamentally the same, but the incentive to conduct the science shifts. And the zeitgeist controls the funding and the narrative. Given that bodily integrity is on the line AND given that public danger is on the line, you'd think that researching this stuff would be obvious to both sets of stakeholders. The hypothesis that natural infection (or types of natural infection) would be as good as the vaccine in preventing re-infection is sound. We would have to do real science to post-hoc explain why one was better than the other, I don't think either being a winner would be a surprise.
I'm not insisting anything, other than "you really don't want to catch this" :p

I don't have an impact on the funding; on the zeitgeist. My arguments are individual and specific to this thread. I understand where you're coming from, but I think like the last time, perhaps you're coming at this from a different angle. I'm not saying it's not a valid angle, mind.

I'm not saying we should ignore natural immunity. I'm not saying we shouldn't quantify it in terms of actual, national strategies. I object to it being used as a crude chess piece from people who don't care about a vaccine mandate. What these posters (and we all know them, I've quoted the posts enough) care about the mandate itself. Any mandate.

We agree on the science, though I'm sure you know that. We may disagree on policy perhaps, but I expect that. To re-iterate: my argument is contextual to CFC and specifically the arguments I quote when I reply. I do think that researching this stuff should be obvious to any stakeholder. But I'm dealing with arguments that, for better (or generally, in my opinion, worse), either ignore, cherry pick or outright fabricate the science in order to further their dogma.

If it helps, I'd absolutely call out any pro-vaccine argument that does the same. We need more trust in the data, not less.
 
Most of these cell lines are also ancient cancer cell lines, so nobody is anymore getting hurt for this, so this point doesn't really stand.

It's not really my argument nor my reason for opposing mandate. However, I will again point out that telling people which aspects of their beliefs count vs don't count is a path that has burned government and non-government institutions repeatedly. If you're an employer and want to pay up in court, go for it.

Furthermore, how can one apply these convictions in other ways in the modern world? Much of the infrastructure that we enjoy now was built on the backs of many who suffered in the past—who laid down the railroads? Who mined all the coal? Who worked in the textile factories? Who fought and died to protect liberty in the West? The collective prosperity and knowledge we have today has a dark and unfortunate past—a past that is not necessary to repeat based on some selective moral application.

I like internal consistency. But if we're forcing it at gunpoint/on pain of having no job/ability to live in society, I'd be careful where one starts pointing fingers, and a little less confident that anybody is fully so. Not a fan of letting the government decide "truth" regardless of reality.

If we're understaffed (and our government has worked hard to erode hospital morale), that will show as a change in deaths/case (since there will be poorer service). Some regions will have to fire staff, if they refuse vaccinations. Complicated by refusing to acknowledge previous infection, obviously.

I don't think we could attribute any change in deaths/case that easily. You could easily have worsening service, but a higher % vaccinated for example. If the increase in % vaccination is significant enough, your deaths/case will improve even as the quality of service declines. And these are just two factors.

There is no way I'd suggest turning away the unvaccinated from healthcare, unless there was an overwhelming need to do so. That's about as effing regressive as I can possibly imagine, and should probably be a conversation-ender.

You just said the numbers were overwhelming though :p. It's not that obviously "regressive" compared to alternative in this case, either. We routinely allow people to accept risks, in some cases higher risk than they statistically have from COVID. It's not clear to me that, assuming actual over-capacity situations, that someone who willingly assumed the risk of COVID is materially different, or that this is less fair than alternatives. This sounds more like asking the government to decide what is best for people, rather than people themselves.

We don't even need a slope for this slip; lots of things are in play to compel using presented reasoning as the standard, including actively regulating what you eat or how you spend your time. Maybe some in favor of the mandate are also in favor of such measures, maybe some aren't, but to me that outcome dismantles way more than just healthcare.

Our public healthcare system is too worthy of protection to allow such a brutal effort to dismantle its very foundation.

The alternative is to further sac our constitution/restraints on government to give it broad authority to force things at this risk threshold. If we destroy the foundation of the country, the foundation of the healthcare system stops mattering. That's not power that goes away once possessed, unless it is taken away with force. I will take a brief moment to remind everyone where these "mandates" are coming from, and what they're doing with information control alongside it. And then consider how this is supposed to have happened, according to the design of our government.

I will advocate the vaccine, because the balance of risks make it obvious for most people. I will not accept Jacobson, which was bad law > 80 years ago, nor an arbitrary and heavy erosion of freedom.
 
Right, so stop making up nonsense that suggests that you do. Anything you do make up isn't supported by what we currently know, and you're not exactly Cassandra.

You've already been corrected on this, and true to form you've already purged it from your memory.

And don't ask "where".

I'll correct myself, people dont need to get covid or the vaccine to have protection - most people have protection without either because they or their ancestors got similar bugs and inherited protection from them. Maybe charting the people who got Mers are swine flu or whatever was going around 10-50 years ago will show they fared better with covid.

As for nonsense, you said natural immunity induced by covid doesn't last forever. Assuming 'forever' means the few decades we get to live, how do you know when natural immunity wears off and when? One year? A few months? Three years, 10, 20? You dont know either. And you didn't answer the question, telling me it was already answered doesn't help. I wont scour the thread looking for what you think was an answer.

Pretty much everything.

The question being discussed is whether covid or the vaccine produces a better immune response to future infections.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/study...s-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/

Also pretty sure we give out vaccines for older diseases too when children reach school-age. If the immunity passed from my parents to me, I want to know why they were sticking me with that needle in the school library.

to make sure you had protection

I encourage ALL REPUBLICANS to urinate on the electric fence.

Rather then speak with medical professional as to why Vaccines are better.

are there any medical professionals in Israel?
 
I'll correct myself, people dont need to get covid or the vaccine to have protection - most people have protection without either because they or their ancestors got similar bugs and inherited protection from them. Maybe charting the people who got Mers are swine flu or whatever was going around 10-50 years ago will show they fared better with covid.

As for nonsense, you said natural immunity induced by covid doesn't last forever. Assuming 'forever' means the few decades we get to live, how do you know when natural immunity wears off and when? One year? A few months? Three years, 10, 20? You dont know either. And you didn't answer the question, telling me it was already answered doesn't help. I wont scour the thread looking for what you think was an answer.
The question being discussed is whether covid or the vaccine produces a better immune response to future infections.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/study...s-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/
to make sure you had protection
are there any medical professionals in Israel?

Getting protection from the thing ... by getting it, and possibly dying from it, or having permanent health complications. Even if you survive intact, you could be on the hook for major bills. Financially ruining you, or your family.

It's like saying you want to get shot in the head because you would get a plate put in your skull and have protection against bullets.

The alternative is to further sac our constitution/restraints on government to give it broad authority to force things at this risk threshold. If we destroy the foundation of the country, the foundation of the healthcare system stops mattering. That's not power that goes away once possessed, unless it is taken away with force. I will take a brief moment to remind everyone where these "mandates" are coming from, and what they're doing with information control alongside it. And then consider how this is supposed to have happened, according to the design of our government.

I will advocate the vaccine, because the balance of risks make it obvious for most people. I will not accept Jacobson, which was bad law > 80 years ago, nor an arbitrary and heavy erosion of freedom.

Amazing how you think that a vaccine mandate which has been going on for longer than you have been alive is fatal to Democracy. But not the building Right-wing mania against Democracy, and the fact that 2 Presidents were elected without democratic legitimacy.
 
I like internal consistency. But if we're forcing it at gunpoint/on pain of having no job/ability to live in society, I'd be careful where one starts pointing fingers, and a little less confident that anybody is fully so. Not a fan of letting the government decide "truth" regardless of reality.
Any/all government is force.
 
It's not that obviously "regressive" compared to alternative in this case, either.
No, it's vastly more regressive, because the damages aren't at all proportionate. Both are, but one is worse.
The regressive damages from covid-19 have been truly ignored by the loud antivax crowd. Though I definitely recognize the regressive impact of a mandate, and have noticed other people do as well, there's a gist of people throwing in that argument to supplement that they themselves don't wanna get vaccinated.

The alternative is to further sac our constitution/restraints on government to give it broad authority to force things at this risk threshold. If we destroy the foundation of the country, the foundation of the healthcare system stops mattering.
I'm in the Canadian system, which I would never trade for the American system.
Refusing to cover people who're mainly the victims of misinformation is the absolute height of bad governance. The wave will eventually end, at a horrendous cost, but the precedent of refusing to cover people doesn't end well.

Nearly all of my complaints have been about the failure of public science, which I critique because I want more.
In my system, the public has incentive to overcome hesitancy. In a system that can kick the 'underserving' from the rolls, we have incentive to speed their deaths. No thanks. The inability to accurately compile useful information is the ultimate pre-existing condition. I have no interest in supporting an insurance system that wants to shuck those people rather than educate them.
 
No one is denying that 'natural immunity' exists.

They're denying natural immunity matters while lecturing everyone about the science, they want everyone getting the vaccine and dont care if people had covid already.

There is definitely a benefit to getting a booster after fighting off infection

I think they were in such a rush to get people vaccinated they didn't space the shots out enough, two so close together made it easier for the body to fend off the 2nd shot. A booster for those who had covid gave a strong response but thats the short term immune system. I'd think that would still further enhance long term protection but we wont know how much if any for a while.

this place really isn't an echo chamber.

Republicans are evil - like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like
Democrats are too - troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll

If your "religion" forbids you from being vaccinated, that's not a religion, that's a cult.

why?
 
Sweet golly. That's going to be a heck of a data-set that will be super-duper useful for retrospective analysis.

I expect the 2021 census data (reference period August this year) to come back and tell us they have under estimated our current population by a few thousand, but by the looks of things that may just be the difference between being over or under 100% of total population vaccinated.
 
On what moral basis? If you want to do all you can to protect your patients you want your staff as protected as possible. The fact that it may be better to get the disease rather than the vaccine only matters if you can get people to get the disease. You cannot, so the options are get the vaccine or not. The patients will be safer if the staff get the vaccine, whether or not they have had the disease, so to maximise patient safety you want your staff vaccinated. Perfectly logical, and with science. Unless you think firing people is inherently immoral then how can this be?

We're talking about people who already got covid, front line health care workers were getting 'vaccinated' long before the rest of us. I imagine their demographic has by far the highest vaccination rate if we include the people who got covid. Coercing people into medically unnecessary procedures is immoral.

Acquired immunity passed to kids is purely the immunoglobulins, mostly via colostrum but some over the placenta. It is very important, but will not last more than a few months. Of course our immune systems are coded by our genes, and we got our genes from our ancestors, but that is not the same as getting active immunity from them.

Do we get long term natural immunity from the genes we inherit? I saw a PBS docu on the black death and AIDS virus that argued N European survivors of the plague produced descendants with more resistance to AIDS. One problem I have with the vaccine is it bypasses the door used by covid. I think a nasal spray vaccine would be better if it follows the pathway of the virus. I just dont see much evidence the vaccines are better, the data coming out of Israel says otherwise.
 
Do we get long term natural immunity from the genes we inherit? I saw a PBS docu on the black death and AIDS virus that argued N European survivors of the plague produced descendants with more resistance to AIDS. One problem I have with the vaccine is it bypasses the door used by covid. I think a nasal spray vaccine would be better if it follows the pathway of the virus. I just dont see much evidence the vaccines are better, the data coming out of Israel says otherwise.

Nah Evolution is competely fake. Its just a lie by Medical science
Just like the lie about vaccines and how all the ones that are now dying are the unvaccinated ...... for some reason that you cannot connect the dots.

Is it so hard to understand why humans invented VACCINES ?
Comeon its not that hard.
 
I'll correct myself, people dont need to get covid or the vaccine to have protection - most people have protection without either because they or their ancestors got similar bugs and inherited protection from them. Maybe charting the people who got Mers are swine flu or whatever was going around 10-50 years ago will show they fared better with covid.

The latter part is actually true, although I'd need to check for the link again.
It turns out that people who survived SARS-1 do a lot better with SARS-2, since they do already have antibody protection. It also seems that they generate after both infections a range of antibodies, which is a lot wider.
But it shouldn't be forgotten that both SARS-1 and MERS were rather confined, and that not too many people got it.
I'd also not say that getting 2 possibly deadly diseases is the best thing which can happen to you right now :lol:.

So most people will not have natural immunity. The other coronaviruses in circulation aren't close enough to yield strong enough antibodies against SARS-2. (IIRC)

Coercing people into medically unnecessary procedures is immoral.

Getting vaccinated in a pandemic shouldn't count as "unnecessary", no?


Do we get long term natural immunity from the genes we inherit? I saw a PBS docu on the black death and AIDS virus that argued N European survivors of the plague produced descendants with more resistance to AIDS.

You'd have a way to find this docu?
Because this connection sounds pretty unlikely. Pest and AIDS have very different modes of action. I'd not see any real good possibility that one helps against the other.

One problem I have with the vaccine is it bypasses the door used by covid. I think a nasal spray vaccine would be better if it follows the pathway of the virus. I just dont see much evidence the vaccines are better, the data coming out of Israel says otherwise.

The numbers in most countries with high vaccination rate show that the deaths from Covid are far reduced in these countries, in comparsion to places with a lower vaccination rate.
That should count for something ;).
 
Coercing people into medically unnecessary procedures is immoral.
If we go to the hospital, you can have the “natural immunity” doctor.

Allow me to expand: if my doctor got the coronavirus, that means they’re probably around of other sick people, so I want them to have the best immunity my yen can buy because I don’t trust other people. A lot of them happen, unfortunately, to be morons. Some of them even get elected to Congress or promoted to middle management.

So given the options, do I want to take my chance with the virgin “natural immunity” doctor, or do I want the Chad Super-Immunity doctor? Gimme the latter.
 
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If we go to the hospital, you can have the “natural immunity” doctor.

For the same reason I want a doctor who's not quitting coffee, I want a doctor who's not had coronavirus.

There's a statistically significant chance I'm dealing with someone hiding their Brain Fog and coasting on their credentials. They'll still know more than I do, but it's still an unnecessary risk


Edit: here's the plague/HIV connection. But that's not inheriting resistance, in the epigenetic sense. It's natural selection.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050325234239.htm

Viruses do evolve towards being benign, but we under emphasize how populations select for resistance. It's from people dying, so that part of 'herd immunity' isn't desirable. Dry Tinder will burn and lower later death rates, but it's not considered a success in any political position other than the ones that want their 'undeserving and weak' to die off.

It's eugenics. I'd rather R&D, thank you
 
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WSJ opinion piece by "experts".

Science Closes In on Covid’s Origins
By Richard Muller And Steven Quay

Where did Covid-19 come from? The answer can be found in the SARS-CoV-2 virus itself. To get to the truth, we need only unleash the power of science.

Based on experience with SARS-1 in 2003 and MERS in 2012, we know that many people are infected by a host animal long before a coronavirus mutates to the point where it can jump from human to human. An extensive data set from late 2019—more than 9,000 hospital samples—is available of people exhibiting flulike (thus Covidlike) symptoms in China’s Hubei and Shaanxi provinces before the epidemic started. Based on SARS-1 and MERS, the natural zoonotic theory predicts 100 to 400 Covid infections would be found in those samples. The lab-leak hypothesis, of course, predicts zero. If the novel coronavirus were engineered by scientists pursuing gain-of-function research, there would be no instances of community infection until it escaped from the laboratory. The World Health Organization investigation analyzed those stored samples and found zero pre-pandemic infections. This is powerful evidence favoring the lab-leak theory.

Within months of the SARS-1 and MERS outbreaks, scientists found animals that had hosted the viruses before they made the jump to humans. More than 80% of the animals in affected markets were infected with a coronavirus. In an influential March 2020 paper in Nature Medicine, Kristian Andersen and co-authors implied that a host animal for SARS-CoV-2 would soon be found. If the virus had been cooked up in a lab, of course, there would be no host animal to find.

The WHO team searched for a host in early 2020, testing more than 80,000 animals from 209 species, including wild, domesticated and market animals. Not a single animal infected with SARS-CoV-2 was found. This finding strongly favors the lab-leak theory. We can only wonder if the results would have been different if the animals tested had included the humanized mice kept at the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

A coronavirus adapts for its host animal. It takes time to perfect itself for infecting humans. But a pathogen engineered via accelerated evolution in a laboratory using humanized mice would need no additional time after escape to optimize for human infection. In their Nature Medicine paper, Mr. Andersen and colleagues pointed to what they considered the poor design of SARS-CoV-2 as evidence of zoonotic origin. But a team of American scientists mutated the stem of the coronavirus genome in nearly 4,000 different ways and tested each variation. In the process they actually stumbled on the Delta variant. In the end, they determined that the original SARS-CoV-2 pathogen was 99.5% optimized for human infection— strong confirmation of the lab-leak hypothesis.

SARS-CoV-2 contains a key mutation: the “furin cleavage site,” or FCS. This mutation is sufficiently complex that it couldn’t have been the result of spontaneous changes triggered, for example, by a mutagen or radiation. It could, however, have been inserted by nature or by humans. In nature the process is called recombination— a virus exchanges chunks of itself with another closely related virus when both infect the same cell. The National Institutes of Health database shows no FCS in more than 1,200 viruses that can exchange with SARS-CoV-2.

As the Intercept recently reported, a 2018 grant proposal—written by the EcoHealth Alliance, a U.S.-based nonprofit, and submitted to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or Darpa—contained a description of proposed experiments that would involve splicing the FCS sequences into bat viruses so a research team could look for changes in infectivity. Darpa opted not to fund the grant, but the absence of the FCS in related coronaviruses, together with the apparent desire and capability of scientists to make such an insertion, strongly argues in favor of the laboratory origin thesis.

Based on the scientific evidence alone, an unbiased jury would be convinced that SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus escaped after being created in a laboratory using accelerated evolution (a k a gain of function) and gene splicing on the backbone of a bat coronavirus. Using standard statistical methods, we can quantify the likelihood of the lab-leak hypothesis compared with that of zoonosis. The odds enormously favor a lab leak, far more significantly than the 99% confidence usually required for a revolutionary scientific discovery.

Four studies—including two from WHO—provide powerful evidence favoring the lab-leak theory.


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MARTIN KOZLOWSKI

The WHO is launching yet another investigation. Why? The studies have been done. The research exists. As in Edgar Allan Poe’s “The Purloined Letter,” the crucial evidence is already in plain sight, if only they would look. Let China keep its firewall of secrecy; a suspect who refuses to testify can still be convicted. We have an eyewitness, a whistleblower who escaped from Wuhan and carried details of the pandemic’s origin that the Chinese Communist Party can’t hide. The whistleblower’s name is SARS-CoV-2.

Mr. Muller is an emeritus professor of physics at the University of California, Berkeley and a former senior scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. Dr. Quay is founder of Atossa Therapeutics and a co-author of “The Origin of the Virus: The Hidden Truths Behind the Microbe That Killed Millions of People.”
 
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