Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Ekolite]

I think the HRE would essentially remain the same as it is now until the spawn of Prussia where they flip the northern Germany/Poland areas and what was the HRE is then dynamically renamed Austria-Hungary.

Founding Protestantism should definitely be a UHV for the HRE imo, and another good one would be controlling italy for a certain amount of time, and/or winning the apostolic palace elections.

I think the last UHV for them should be defeating Prussia by a certain date. This would be ahistorical but would represent the struggle for control over Germany fought between the two. Prussia would probably keep Germany's current goals reflecting its militaristic ww2 period.

I think if it was added Indonesia's goals should focus strongly on population growth. UHV's should be about making a unique style of game play for each civ, and UHV's such as ''never loose a city by..'' and ''spread a religion to..'' are boring and have been done before. Indonesia is the fourth most populous nation in the world, which is impressive considering it's only 16th largest in land area. Their UB could be something which provides a growth bonus or food overflow from growth, or perhaps increases the food output of sea tiles or resources. I think a game where the player has to race against tight deadlines to maximise the population of their cities would be pretty fun, and comes with added implied challenges with building infrastructure to provide health and happiness, trade for resources. This might also help discourage expansion into australia or indochina as the player wouldn't want to waste turns not growing by building too many settlers. I think at least 2 of the UHV's could be population based (Egypt has two culture-based ones so this isn't anything unusual). The final goal could either be resisting european colonisation (although this would be easy for the player), or perhaps islam-based reflecting that Indonesia has the largest muslim population in the world. If the player also had to build a certain number of churches/cathedrals it would add to the challenge because this implies that they would need to build a certain number of cities to support them, while trying to maximise the population growth of their cities as well. However if this was the case you would have to ensure that islam will always spread automatically to the area because they are unlikely to found it themselves. (although this could make an interesting alt-hist goal I suppose, assuming they spawn before Arabia).

Their UP could again relate to growth, or perhaps something that allows their units to cross, but not end the turn, on water tiles?

 

[Linkman226]

In 1701, this is all Prussia had:

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/germany/brandenbg16181740.gif

Really not a lot. But that is also the year it makes most sense to spawn them.

 

[Leoreth]

I think the HRE would essentially remain the same as it is now until the spawn of Prussia where they flip the northern Germany/Poland areas and what was the HRE is then dynamically renamed Austria-Hungary.

Exactly, although I will limit its inclination to expand to the east even further, as well as their research and military benefits which seem to be more tailored to allow a high-tech Germany take over Europe in the WW2 era.

Founding Protestantism should definitely be a UHV for the HRE imo, and another good one would be controlling italy for a certain amount of time, and/or winning the apostolic palace elections.

Protestantism is definitely one goal. I'm also thinking of a goal that requires them to control Rome, Jerusalem and Constantinople at a rather early date. This covers the major aspects of HRE foreign policy, their ambition to control Italy, the rivalry about the Emperor title with Byzantium and it finally includes a civ that has some inclination to go crusading

I think the last UHV for them should be defeating Prussia by a certain date. This would be ahistorical but would represent the struggle for control over Germany fought between the two. Prussia would probably keep Germany's current goals reflecting its militaristic ww2 period.

Good idea about the last goal. Prussia should spawn as early as possible, aroung 1700, and take at least half of the HRE with it. Dominating Prussia was one of the chief goals of Austria that failed after it lost the war against it in 1866, so that might be a good deadline for it. Make it Balkans, Germany and Italy and we have covered all the main areas of Austrian concern in the 18th and 19th century.

Prussia will overall keep the German goals, although I'm thinking about lumping the two conquest goals into one and add another.

I think if it was added Indonesia's goals should focus strongly on population growth. UHV's should be about making a unique style of game play for each civ, and UHV's such as ''never loose a city by..'' and ''spread a religion to..'' are boring and have been done before. Indonesia is the fourth most populous nation in the world, which is impressive considering it's only 16th largest in land area. Their UB could be something which provides a growth bonus or food overflow from growth, or perhaps increases the food output of sea tiles or resources. I think a game where the player has to race against tight deadlines to maximise the population of their cities would be pretty fun, and comes with added implied challenges with building infrastructure to provide health and happiness, trade for resources. This might also help discourage expansion into australia or indochina as the player wouldn't want to waste turns not growing by building too many settlers. I think at least 2 of the UHV's could be population based (Egypt has two culture-based ones so this isn't anything unusual). The final goal could either be resisting european colonisation (although this would be easy for the player), or perhaps islam-based reflecting that Indonesia has the largest muslim population in the world. If the player also had to build a certain number of churches/cathedrals it would add to the challenge because this implies that they would need to build a certain number of cities to support them, while trying to maximise the population growth of their cities as well. However if this was the case you would have to ensure that islam will always spread automatically to the area because they are unlikely to found it themselves. (although this could make an interesting alt-hist goal I suppose, assuming they spawn before Arabia).

Interesting thoughts. I agree that two population based goals are no problem (and they can always cover different aspects, like one "have x% of the world population" goal and another "have an average city size of x" one), but I don't know if they're justified for their earlier history.

Having another goal that they need to balance their growth against sounds good as well (otherwise it only amounts to building health and happiness buildings and otherwise turn on the growth AI). Early Indonesian kingdoms like Srivijaya were famous for their trade, which is a good complement to keeping your large cities healthy. Maybe combine both into "have three cities with a size of x without unhealthiness or unhappiness", with x decided to make a good challenge?

Then we can make another percentage based population goal for somewhere in the 20th century and something Islam related for 1500+.

I've got no idea on the UB front yet (veBear's Indonesia has a theatre replacement that's basically the Chinese pavillion), but I don't know if it should be something that ramps up their growth even more (we'd only have to increase the UHV difficulty to compensate).

Their UP could again relate to growth, or perhaps something that allows their units to cross, but not end the turn, on water tiles?

The latter sounds very interesting, but I don't know if it can be done (a better way to make this happen is probably to give them a harbor UB that allows "airlifting" like airports within short range).

My first idea was to make it trade related, maybe by disabling the AI reluctance to trade away their only resource (strategic resources excluded) or something they use for corporations as long as they get something with the same effect in return (i.e. if China has one deer and no fish, it would agree to an Indonesian "deer in exchange for fish" deal). This would help securing the first goal without giving them any direct advantage (you'd still need to have something valuable to sell).

And by the way, thanks for the good post, that one was inspiring!


On to another topic: I've found out that the 3000 BC crash was introduced in revision 105, which incidentally was where I edited the game font files. I'll follow up on that angle now.

 

[Leoreth]

In 1701, this is all Prussia had:

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/germany/brandenbg16181740.gif

Really not a lot. But that is also the year it makes most sense to spawn them.

Well, most civs get more on their spawn than what they really had in the following years (Rome gets all of Italy in 750 BC, for example).

 

[BenZL43]

How about making one of Indonesia's UHV to offer the most diversity resources in the region?
Indonesia in really rich in resources, just most of the time covered by nasty jungles..

Anyway, are we representing Indonesia in the Srivijaya era (c700 AD), Majapahit era (c1293 AD) or Republic of Indonesia (c1945 AD) ?

Srivijaya era most identified with Trades and Naval Power
Majapahit era most identified with Military Conquest and Expansion
Republic of Indonesia most identified with Population and Islam

PS: Here I'm counting minutes to Indonesia's independence day celebration We're gotta get lot of festivals \(^_^)/ ... and speech =_= lol

 

[The Turk]

Why would the Austrian-Hungarians want to found and convert to Protestantism? They were a Catholic bulwark in Central Europe!

As for the HRE, I think those goals sound good, about capturing Rome, Northern Italy and Jerusalem.


Also I agree having a Srivijaya/Majaphit Empire would be great addition to the game, and then a respawn as the Indonesians. Also perhaps a Dutch Conqueror's event, to collapse the Malay Sultanate would be a good idea too.

 

[Kcawesome]

One goal of Prussia could be to unite Germany by about 1870.

 

[J. pride]

Why would the Austrian-Hungarians want to found and convert to Protestantism? They were a Catholic bulwark in Central Europe!

Agreed or if u are going to add it make sure that Austria becomes Catholic after the split.

I'm also thinking of a goal that requires them to control Rome, Jerusalem and Constantinople at a rather early date.

Rome and Jerusalem sound good but Constantinople is a bit ahistorical and overwhelming. I think u should just strenghten Rome and Jerusalem a bit more and require them to just conquer them and ofcourse Northern Italy. Or u could make the Italian spawn non conditional and make them conquer or vassalize Italy after spawn which would be challanging but really fun.

Well, most civs get more on their spawn than what they really had in the following years (Rome gets all of Italy in 750 BC, for example)

I was thinking of moving their spawn even earlier to 1618 to represent Prussia Brandenburg union

Also it would really make sense for u to add my Polish minor civ idea about the same time u are making these changes. The Poles can serve as a buffer to the HRE but by the time the time the Prussia spawn they would be weak enough to be divided off between Prussia and Russia

 

[IrishDragon]

How about making one of Indonesia's UHV to offer the most diversity resources in the region?
Indonesia in really rich in resources, just most of the time covered by nasty jungles..

Anyway, are we representing Indonesia in the Srivijaya era (c700 AD), Majapahit era (c1293 AD) or Republic of Indonesia (c1945 AD) ?

Srivijaya era most identified with Trades and Naval Power
Majapahit era most identified with Military Conquest and Expansion
Republic of Indonesia most identified with Population and Islam

PS: Here I'm counting minutes to Indonesia's independence day celebration We're gotta get lot of festivals \(^_^)/ ... and speech =_= lol

I thought the Majapahits were strongly identified with trade as well?

 

[The Turk]

I thought the Majapahits were strongly identified with trade as well?

Ya lol, me too.... I don't know if I want the Indonesian civ to be expanding too much at all...

And I agree, taking Constantinople as part of the HRE plan, doesn't sound too great, I'd change it to conquer Poland or something.

And yes I agree 100%, a Poland Minor civ should be added, perhaps Posen or Warsaw, but a strong buffer state is needed IMO.

 

[Leoreth]

How about making one of Indonesia's UHV to offer the most diversity resources in the region?
Indonesia in really rich in resources, just most of the time covered by nasty jungles..

Anyway, are we representing Indonesia in the Srivijaya era (c700 AD), Majapahit era (c1293 AD) or Republic of Indonesia (c1945 AD) ?

Srivijaya era most identified with Trades and Naval Power
Majapahit era most identified with Military Conquest and Expansion
Republic of Indonesia most identified with Population and Islam

PS: Here I'm counting minutes to Indonesia's independence day celebration We're gotta get lot of festivals \(^_^)/ ... and speech =_= lol

All of the three (I know they are different polities, but are usually understood as precursors to modern Indonesia so makes sense to view them as one civilization).

One question on Majapahit: did they conquer any areas that were outside of what we understand today as Indonesia and Malaysia?

Why would the Austrian-Hungarians want to found and convert to Protestantism? They were a Catholic bulwark in Central Europe!

By the Reformation, the HRE wasn't.

Also it would really make sense for u to add my Polish minor civ idea about the same time u are making these changes.[/B] The Poles can serve as a buffer to the HRE but by the time the time the Prussia spawn they would be weak enough to be divided off between Prussia and Russia

True.

 

[The Turk]

So Austria-Hungary is going to be a Protestant civ? And since when was Charles V and the HRE not the Catholic strong nation in mainland Europe? Also the HRE should not convert to Protestantism, but should remain Catholic, while the Prussians should start off as Protestant.

Its my personal belief that Protestantism should be automatically founded in HRE, but not allowed to convert, that would make gameplay a lot more interesting IMO, with the rise of a Protestant Prussia and Catholic Austria.

 

[J. pride]

So Austria-Hungary is going to be a Protestant civ? And since when was Charles V and the HRE not the Catholic strong nation in mainland Europe? Also the HRE should not convert to Protestantism, but should remain Catholic, while the Prussians should start off as Protestant.

Its my personal belief that Protestantism should be automatically founded in HRE, but not allowed to convert, that would make gameplay a lot more interesting IMO, with the rise of a Protestant Prussia and Catholic Austria.

Yeah that sounds good but just to make it easier for the Prussians Catholicism should dissapear from the Northern cities and Protestant churches should replace Catholic churches there.

 

[IrishDragon]

One question on Majapahit: did they conquer any areas that were outside of what we understand today as Indonesia and Malaysia?

From reading up on them, they might have controlled significant parts of the Philippines, can't find anything concrete on them though. Wiki also says the Srivijaya may have briefly controlled parts of the Cambodian/south Vietnamese coasts

 

[Leoreth]

So Austria-Hungary is going to be a Protestant civ? And since when was Charles V and the HRE not the Catholic strong nation in mainland Europe? Also the HRE should not convert to Protestantism, but should remain Catholic, while the Prussians should start off as Protestant.

Its my personal belief that Protestantism should be automatically founded in HRE, but not allowed to convert, that would make gameplay a lot more interesting IMO, with the rise of a Protestant Prussia and Catholic Austria.

Where do you get these ideas from? All I said was that the HRE should found Protestantism, which it did. I have no idea why it should be founded automatically, nor why the HRE should be forbidden from converting to it.

It's an alternate history game. How can limited options make a game more interesting?

Edit: Seems like I found the reason for the 3000 BC scenario crash, I'll commit a fix to the SVN soon.

 

[J. pride]

I mean the option should be available for HRE to switch to Protestant but it would be good to see a Catholic Austria close to 70% of the time or maybe Austria should start with Catholicism even if HRE is protestant.

 

[The Turk]

I mean the option should be available for HRE to switch to Protestant but it would be good to see a Catholic Austria close to 70% of the time or maybe Austria should start with Catholicism even if HRE is protestant.

I agree, but it should be more like 85%
Austria should start with Catholicism.

 

[Ekolite]

@The Turk: How I understand it is that there will be two German civs, the first will represent the Holy Roman Empire (in which Protestantism was ''founded'' irl), when the second one spawns, it will represent Prussia and the first civ will loose its nothern territories. From this point on, that civ represents Austria-Hungary and no longer the HRE.

The HRE/Austria civ will have the goal to found Protestantism by a certain date before Prussia spawns, during which time it represents the HRE, not Austria.

Maybe it would be possible to adjust the spread of religions so that Protestantism tends to spread to north Germany and not south Germany. This way Prussia would tend to be Protestant and Austria Catholic. When HRE/Austria represents the HRE, it might be 50/50, but once it looses its northern Protestant cities to Prussia it would probably convert to Catholicism if it had previously been Protestant.

Therefore we'd have a HRE with an equal chance of either religion, a Prussia that is usually Protestant, and an Austria which is usually Catholic.

 

[J. pride]

@The Turk: How I understand it is that there will be two German civs, the first will represent the Holy Roman Empire (in which Protestantism was ''founded'' irl), when the second one spawns, it will represent Prussia and the first civ will loose its nothern territories. From this point on, that civ represents Austria-Hungary and no longer the HRE.

The HRE/Austria civ will have the goal to found Protestantism by a certain date before Prussia spawns, during which time it represents the HRE, not Austria.

Maybe it would be possible to adjust the spread of religions so that Protestantism tends to spread to north Germany and not south Germany. This way Prussia would tend to be Protestant and Austria Catholic. When HRE/Austria represents the HRE, it might be 50/50, but once it looses its northern Protestant cities to Prussia it would probably convert to Catholicism if it had previously been Protestant.

Therefore we'd have a HRE with an equal chance of either religion, a Prussia that is usually Protestant, and an Austria which is usually Catholic.

In addition there should be a more chance for the northern city to convert their churches into protestant ones and there should be a high chance that Protestantism should be founded in Berlin or Frankfurt

 

[The Turk]

@Leoreth

I'm not too thrilled by the Indonesian UHV's, they should focus more on trade, and is having a grad total of 9 cities (to complete the mosque UHV) really worth it? I think that should be toned down to 2 Mosques, as most cities, I can't imagine will be very good in South East Asia.

Also the Thai UHV of having no Islam in South East Asia is a bit strange, and does not seem to reflect them very well at all. Also you state that you will have Angkor shift tiles, and change its name, but is it worth it, if there are wonders built in Angkor, to have them shifted to, to a new city? IMO Angkor should just become a town improvement and the Thai should just build their own new city.