Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[J. pride]

I actually started in Xi'an. Took the 3 turns it takes to move from Beijing to Xi'an before started. However Beijing was the first city I built and it was far superior to Xi'an in production and food.

My 3rd city was Nanjing, followed by Ghangzhou, followed by Korea, followed by Hangzhou, followed by Bactou (or something like that) followed by one in between Korea and Beijing, followed by one in Mongolia (Which was eventually razed by Barbs)

My solution to the problem. Well first I am think I will remove some of the forests to see if the lack of chopping ability will weaken China.

However its 2 am and I have school tomorrow, so I will try that tomrrow when I get home

I highly suspect that the problem is limited to marathon; because even the Ai was able to found both Toaism and Confucianism in 3000 ad On both of my tests; please try normal speed next time because it is near impossible/extremely difficul to balance all three speeds.

If the problem persists ill change the terrain but there is no way for me to change the marathon modifiers unfortunately; maybe Leoreth can help us

 

[ilduce349]

Your probably right

However as I only play marathon I will still try and find ways to balance it.

Edit: we're using different versions of the game, since mine doesn't have Confucianism. Could that make any difference?

 

[J. pride]

Edit: we're using different versions of the game, since mine doesn't have Confucianism. Could that make any difference?

Maybe

However as I only play marathon I will still try and find ways to balance it.

Why, normal is way more fun and a lot more balanced?

anyways tell me which resources are overpowered that way i can make them spawn on appropriate dates. For example the wheat that start in Beijing; if u want i could make it spawn in 600 ad.

 

[ilduce349]

I dislike how slow wars are on normal.

A 20 turn war on Normal could mean say 100 years, while that war on Marathon would only be 30 years, a lot more realistic.

Also I generally find the European Countries do a better job at colonizing on marathon... (aka they actually build cities everywhere)

 

[J. pride]

A 20 turn war on Normal could mean say 100 years, while that war on Marathon would only be 30 years, a lot more realistic.

Also I generally find the European Countries do a better job at colonizing on marathon... (aka they actually build cities everywhere)

I still think u should give normal a try; especially when Leoreth makes the Europeans conquests a whole lot better.

 

[ilduce349]

anyways tell me which resources are overpowered that way i can make them spawn on appropriate dates. For example the wheat that start in Beijing; if u want i could make it spawn in 600 ad.

That seems like a better solution then what I have been doing. If I didn't want a resource to be available until the late game, I have been adding a jungle on it, making it so that you need biology to be able to use the resource.

I still think u should give normal a try; especially when Leoreth makes the Europeans conquests a whole lot better.

Maybe...

 

[BenZL43]

I can't and won't prohibit random religion spread. I'll add a more scripted spread of Islam at appropriate dates, though.

Thanks

Wiki mentioned Sunda Kelapa as the precursor city of Jakarta, that's why I used the name. Conquest usually won't fly because of the AI's problems with naval invasions (also, a 400 AD spawn would result in the city flipping). Many cities that are actually way older get "founded" by settlers. Almost all of Europe works that way.

Well..
Actually the city was built under the name Sundapura under Tarumanagara Kingdom. Due to it's natural harbor and lots of coconut (Indonesian : Kelapa) there, people start to call it Sunda Kelapa.. Allright. No problem

Btw,
Thank you for making Dutch colonize Indonesia Awesome!
There's something need to be changed in CNM, but it's not really important right now since it's just a city name

Another playtesting as Korea.
Manchurian horse archer were awesome!
When I spawn, they already razed Mudanjiang and captured Shenyang...
Next turn, I sent my Swordsman to capture Shenyang, and Manchurian is razing Baotou..
Next 2 turn they're capturing Beijing (I then sent my swordman to get Beijing mine )
Beijing capital moved to Shanghai, then Manchurian capture Chang'an..
Not so after, China collapse

One thing I forgot to mention when playtest Indonesia..
Why Khmer spawn in 660AD? And Srivijaya at 700AD?

IMO Srivijaya should spawn at 670AD or 700AD, okay. And Khmer way behind at least at 802AD..
Spawning them earlier than Srivijaya is a worse idea since they already populated the Indochina peninsula when Srivijaya arrived..

P.S : How about J.Pride idea to spawn India later at 500BC? *IIRC, CMIIW*

 

[ilduce349]

I would still like to see a 1465 Japan spawn. So they wont interfer with the mainland to early.

 

[rogue131]

I would still like to see a 1465 Japan spawn. So they wont interfer with the mainland to early.

I haven't played the updated versions or anything yet, but I would imagine a Chinese and Korean spawn might slow their advance somewhat.

Also, this is more of a pet peeve than anything else. Can we stop using Wikipedia for our history cross referencing? I don't mind it for maps, I guess, but the nature of Wiki makes it a highly unreliable source of information. Being that anyone can edit any portion, and may not exactly have the proper credentials or knowledge to back up their claims.

As for speed, I prefer marathon as well, mainly because I feel the full sweep of time. I think normal and epic seem to fast for me.

 

[J. pride]

Some spawns that I think need to be delayed:

Japan: like Illduces idea

India: My idea a few posts back; still havent responded to my post.

Leoreth can you make India spawn at 500 BCE (the time Indian civilization actually took shape) in Pataliputra or Ujjain. Currently they spawn in 3000 bc as the IVC (Indus civilization) which is very dumb considering that India spawns in Delhi. Thats like representing the Turks and Hittites as the same civilization even worse since the two (most of the time) occupied different regions and we no little to nothing about the IVC.

That said I would like to propose that u add the city of Taxila on the map; Taxila was an important ancient city that can represent Persian, Indian and Greek influence in the Af-Pak region. You should marginally increase the Ai war map for the region for all three civs so the likeliest scenario would go something like this: Persia spawn and takes over Taxila; India spawns and conquers Taxila from them and if the Greeks expand this far they take Taxila from India/Persia. Afterward when the Arabs/Safavids/Mongols conquer the city it should be renamed into Peshawar, Kabul or Lahore (depending on the location u choose)

Russia: should spawn in either 1280 (dutchy of Moscow) or 1160 (Vladimir Sutzel); the early Russian expansion into Siberia is extremely troublesome that early on and in atleast half of my games Russia does not conquer Kiev. Id rather have a Russia that spawns later which is more historically accurate and stronger and more formidable gameplay wise.

Spain: After you add the Moor push back the Spanish spawn.

 

[ilduce349]

About India: So woudl there be an independent civilization for the holy cities?

About Russia: I have yet to play a game where Russia makes it to Vladivostok... Wouldn't pushing back their spawn make it harder for them to expand east?

About Spain: How much later do you think Spain should spawn?

Also another question: Would anyone else be intrigued in the idea of England spawning in 1066 (or closest possible time) on the coast of Northern France?

 

[rogue131]

Also another question: Would anyone else be intrigued in the idea of England spawning in 1066 (or closest possible time) on the coast of Northern France?

That depends how you look at it. Is England spawning earlier representing the Britons/Anglo Saxons or are we spawning a Norman England, in 1066 (saying its Hastings). It really depends.

 

[Leoreth]

I was thinking about Japan. Why does it start so early?

It was still a neolithic civilization until 300 bc and wasn't unified until 1573 (Yamato and co never controlled the north)

I think Japan would have a lot less issues with it if it started in the 1400s.

1400 sounds a little late, although I agree that they spawn really early currently. In my opinion Japan should start with the Nara/Heian periods.

I highly suspect that the problem is limited to marathon; because even the Ai was able to found both Toaism and Confucianism in 3000 ad On both of my tests; please try normal speed next time because it is near impossible/extremely difficul to balance all three speeds.

If the problem persists ill change the terrain but there is no way for me to change the marathon modifiers unfortunately; maybe Leoreth can help us

I have no idea to what modifiers you're referring. Marathon simply scales everything by three, so all the relations remain intact. The only thing affected are unit movements (which remain at their number of tiles per turn no matter the game speed).

Well..
Actually the city was built under the name Sundapura under Tarumanagara Kingdom. Due to it's natural harbor and lots of coconut (Indonesian : Kelapa) there, people start to call it Sunda Kelapa.. Allright. No problem

Okay.

Btw,
Thank you for making Dutch colonize Indonesia Awesome!
There's something need to be changed in CNM, but it's not really important right now since it's just a city name

And that is ...?

One thing I forgot to mention when playtest Indonesia..
Why Khmer spawn in 660AD? And Srivijaya at 700AD?

IMO Srivijaya should spawn at 670AD or 700AD, okay. And Khmer way behind at least at 802AD..
Spawning them earlier than Srivijaya is a worse idea since they already populated the Indochina peninsula when Srivijaya arrived..

Who already populated the Indochina peninsula then?

I haven't played the updated versions or anything yet, but I would imagine a Chinese and Korean spawn might slow their advance somewhat.

Not in the directions we don't want them to go.

Also, this is more of a pet peeve than anything else. Can we stop using Wikipedia for our history cross referencing? I don't mind it for maps, I guess, but the nature of Wiki makes it a highly unreliable source of information. Being that anyone can edit any portion, and may not exactly have the proper credentials or knowledge to back up their claims.

As proven by those Chola maps, yeah Anyway, I don't mind using them for reference (maps etc. are usually helpful to get a general idea), but everything from wiki should be taken with a grain of salt, not a word of God.


On all those "move the spawn" petitions: this game is called Civilization, not Polities. Which means that certain civilizations were present even before the states that represent them ingame came into being or their area was politically completely unified. Spawning India after Hinduism and Buddhism are founded is completely wrong in my opinion, as are minor distinctions between Kiev and Muscovy only because Russia starts at the former's date in the latter's location. And as I said earlier, English history didn't magically begin when the Normans conquered that island. The Anglosaxons are English.

 

[rogue131]

...as I said earlier, English history didn't magically begin when the Normans conquered that island. The Anglosaxons are English.

My point exactly

 

[Linkman226]

Im sorry but can u play on regular; alot of the things are not balanced for Marathon speed as I dont know how to edit the Dll code. Actually I know that some civs are only balanced for regular. Balancing for marathon requires me changing Chinese growth rate and such.

Not true. Such things are auto-balanced by the game.

 

[Leoreth]

Exactly: thrice more turns -> cities need thrice more food to grow etc.

The only advantage in research and so on I could see is that you lose less time in moving your workers, but I doubt this has much of an effect.

Edit: I'm currently thinking about India, and I guess a 3000 BC spawn can stay. They'll spawn at Varanasi, which is at least possibly that old. I'm trying to make it at least possible to have Varanasi, Dehli and Patliputra at the same time, but for a more optimal setup you'd probably have to choose between Varanasi and Patliputra (Varanasi won't be there in the 600 AD scenario, though). Terrain will be adapted mostly based on civ_king's suggestions.

I've also thought about his offhand comment that it's hard to get the historical specialist economy working, and now that Caste System isn't a civic anymore I wondered if we should give India "The Power of Castes": all scientists, artists and merchants produce +1 food. So you can get a specialist economy with much lower costs, resulting in a historically large population.

 

[civ_king]

Exactly: thrice more turns -> cities need thrice more food to grow etc.

The only advantage in research and so on I could see is that you lose less time in moving your workers, but I doubt this has much of an effect.

Edit: I'm currently thinking about India, and I guess a 3000 BC spawn can stay. They'll spawn at Varanasi, which is at least possibly that old. I'm trying to make it at least possible to have Varanasi, Dehli and Patliputra at the same time, but for a more optimal setup you'd probably have to choose between Varanasi and Patliputra (Varanasi won't be there in the 600 AD scenario, though). Terrain will be adapted mostly based on civ_king's suggestions.

I've also thought about his offhand comment that it's hard to get the historical specialist economy working, and now that Caste System isn't a civic anymore I wondered if we should give India "The Power of Castes": all scientists, artists and merchants produce +1 food. So you can get a specialist economy with much lower costs, resulting in a historically large population.

Actually when I tried it (Jungle>Flood Plain) as India I had fairly large cities in the northern part with 19-22 population in them so size isn't a problem however if you boosted the specialists themselves to be stronger that'd be great (like scientists produce 4, engineers 3, artists 5-6, etc.) and made them have unlimited scientists, merchants, artists and perhaps a few engineer slots (they can get the priest slots from the absurd amount of religions).

Also could you perhaps give Indians a UB that they can actually use in the historical time period like before they win? (perhaps a 1 or 1 for specialists?)

 

[Leoreth]

How many floodplains did you add? I hoped to be able to refrain from placing them on grass with the new UP and some rice resources. Giving them unlimited specialists without a drawback (and not being able to use Slavery was a major drawback in BtS) would be too powerful, but you raise a good point in all the priest slots. Maybe their UP could make them able to use priest slots as "free" slots, i.e. with two scientist slots and two priest slots they can either hire 2 scientists and 2 priests or 4 scientists.

On the matter of the UB, the Mausoleum is rather Mughal flavoured anyway, and they will be outsourced into a minor civ at some point. Do you have any idea for a building that would represent something health related?

 

[Linkman226]

Uh, the Mughals will be a minor?

 

[Leoreth]

Uh, the Mughals will be a minor?

I'm a little flip-flopping on that, but setting up three goals for a civ whose prime lasted only 200 years seemed a little contrived to me.