Dune Mod

[jefmart1]

I thought that House Vernius had gone "rogue" and the nuke used on Salusa Secundus was theirs?

And that the Tlielaxu controlled Ix at the time of the first Dune book?

If you read the "prequels", all based on notes that Frank herbert left in a safe deposit box, it explains alot of the background. Such as why Ginaz is no more, why there is little technology, etc.

Really, there should only be a few civs if you are going to be "true" to the first few books.

Main Civs
House Atreides - UU = Ornithopter
House Harkonnen - UU = Sardukaur (on loan from Emperor)
Fremen - UU = Fedaykin

Minor Civs
Spice Smugglers
Wild Fremen

Tlielaxu should be a building, Ghola Tanks - revive or clone units somehow
The Spacing Guild and Bene gesserit should also be buildings.

The problem with the original books as a mod is that there are few civs and few units. Thats why the RTS games took place in an earlier timeframe and used other Houses and technologies that never appeared in the books.

 

[Gunner]

It seems to me that you only read some of the prequel books, or forgot what happened in them. Salusa Secondus got nuked long ago by a different rogue house. The Tleiaxu do not control Ix at the end of the prequels either, the entire point is that it is taken back from them.

Does anyone have any comments about how the overall setup of the game should be? I outlined one possible implementation on the last page, but no one has commented on it. I think that we really need to get a general idea of how the scenario is going to be set up before we can really start worrying too much about artwork, units, the tech tree, etc.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

a fremen, harkonnen, atreidies game would be best for gameplay tactically, although sardukar should be units created with event managers every so oftern "from" the emperor as they couldnt be built on dune, they had to be trained on salusa secundus. i would have to research a little to find an appropriate harkonnen unit.

What about hero units?

i am constanly reminded of the old westwood game "dune 2" when i think about how the graphics will ultimately look.

just some ramblings...

 

[Supa]

I'll try to make a complete sumup of the discussion so far :

Setting and timeline

• The consensus seems to go "Only Arrakis" and Muad'dib period (From Dune to Children of Dune).
• Slightly alternate history : The Emperor didn't give Arrakis control to one House but to multiple House. He doesn't care about wars or treason as long as the Spice keeps flowing (see Emperor Tribute)
• Power Vacuum
  Spoiler :

  The story would start with Kaitan and Salusa Secondus being attacked with atomics by some renegade house (Kaitan is the imperial capital and Salusa Secondus is the home of the Sardakur). So after this a situation would be created where House Corrino and the Emperor survive, but are extremely weakened, about to the level of one of the higher level houses (like Atreides, Harkonnen, etc.). So anyway this would create a sort of power vacuum and all of the major powers are naturally going to try exploit it as an opprotunity to take control of Arrakis and become the new Emperor. The game could start on Arrakis right as the contenders are arriving on the planet getting ready to duke it out.
  

Civilizations

• House Atreides : Everyone agreed
• House Harkonnen : Everyone agreed
• Ix/House Vernius : No consensus. Could be integrated as Civ or special tech or units.
• House Ordos (from Dune 2 game) : No consensus.
• House Corrino : 3 propositions
  1. Like any other Civ
  2. They're the ruling House, they can't be used as a faction
  3. Mix of the two. The Emperor stay out of the fight but Irulian represents House Corrino on Arrakis (with perhaps special advantages)
• CHOAM : Everyone agreed > Not as a civ; more on that later.
• Space Guild : Everyone agreed > Not as a civ
• Fremen :
  1. As a classic Civ (with special tech and units)
  2. As multiple civs (with special tech and units) (with tribes agressive against Atreides too)
  3. As special units for the Atreides
• Spice Smugglers : No consensus.
  1. I think it could be a special civ with its own tech and units and not paying the tribute (see later for that).
  2. Special units
• Bene Tleilax : No consensus.
  1. Special tech
  2. Special units
  3. As a Civ
• Minor Houses
  Spoiler :

  : House Maros, House Alexin, House Rembo, House Moritani, House Ginaz, House Herzog, House Fenring (I forgot them!), House Tipnear, House Chusak, House Khumali, House Kalifi
• House Richese (ally of the Harkonnen)
• House San Maarten (ally of the Atreides)
• House Ginaz
  • Gunner said : I would lean towards not including them as a civ and just representing as hireable mercenaries and maybe a buildable wonder
• House Palpatine (they are mentionned in the back of the Dune in the appendix as being an influential house which is super rich)
• Bene Gesserit : Consensus seems to be : Not as a civ
  

Units and UUs

• Sandworm
  • Sandworms as barbarian
  • Sandworms as roaming invisible units
    Spoiler :

    which are drawn to vehicles/shields/non-fremen, stick to sand, and can only be seen if they are next to you. Maybe spotter aircraft could be simulated at an extra cost for a few extra squares vision (got to be careful to avoid too much micromanagement. Worm + Something worm doesn't like = No more thing.
  • Territorial worms
    Spoiler :

    You could make them terratorial (because they are), so that you don't get pounced on by too many at once. Things which override this would be Fremen riders, and Shields.
    
  • Sandworms as Fremen UU
• Sonic Tank (from Dune 2) for the Atreides
• Atomics
• Ornithopter : jefmart1 proposed them as Atreides UU. I'd rather see them available for all.
• Sardaukaur : jefmart1 proposed them as Harkonnen UU. I'd rather modify that proposition so it could be a once-in-a-game possibility for the Harkonnen (like a GW effect).
• Fedaykin : jefmart1 proposed them as Fremen UU.

Religions

• VinnoSMC proposed to use the Dune religions (Shai Hu'lud, Orange Catholic, Buddislam, etc) as classic Civ4 religions.

Special Features

• CHOAM : I proposed to integrate the CHOAM as a mean to exchange spice against Solaris.
  Spoiler :

  Player A uses his Harverster units (or his Harverster citizens) to "mine" spice. He gets 20 amounts of Spice in his treasure. He decides to sell them immediatly to the CHOAM (Spice treasure of the CHOAM:0). Spice is very rare and CHOAM gives Player A the full price for it (100 Solaris for each amount of spice). Now, the CHOAM has 20 spice units in its treasure. Player B has harvested 20 amounts of spice too. He decides to sell them. CHOAM has already 20 spice, so the price is only half. Player B get 50 Solaris for each spice amount. Over time, the CHOAM will sell and use the spice and its treasure will get back to 0.
• Emperor Tribute : Every X turns, every House civ must give X spices to the Emperor. Fremen and Smugglers would be excluded from this obligation.
• Water :
  1. Replacing Food from classic Civ-4
  2. Generated by special buildings (can be used with proposition 1)
• Spice :
  1. As a special resource
     Spoiler :

     I was thinking perhaps it couldn't be used like others resource (in your territory + road) but like this : In your territory or in neutral territory + having a harvester-type unit on it.
     Depending of the "harvesting strenght" of the unit and the density of the spice field, the income would change.
  2. As money
• Lansraad : I proposed to integrate the Lansraad as a UN-like council (like in Alpha Centauri)
• Money :
  1. The Solaris : Gained like in classic civ (citizens work, special buildings) + exchange spice for solaris.
  2. Spice
• Complete Spice Cycle :
  1. Integrate it like described in the book : More faithful to the books.
  2. Don't integrate it : Too much work, random generation of spice is enough.
• Fremen special features :
  • Sietches :
    1. Only them can build cities in hostile terrains such as rocks or moutains.
    2. Sietches would have a low population limits (6 or 8).
    3. They would be invisible to players that haven't been into the city tile, probable some form of chance to discover them to. (Difficult to integrate, isn't it ?)
    4. Population points could leave the city and become fremen units and the units could join the cities to become pop points.
  • Their specialists would be limited in some fashion.
  • They wouldn't be able to research tech, or maybe just have their own limited tech branch.
• Hero Units : Proposed by Garret. I already though of a special feature like that, I'll propose it later.

Maps

Gunner made a map : North Polar Region of Dune


Sources and inspirations

• Frank Herbert's books !
• I'd like to stay away from the Brian's books. (Supa)
• Dune Encyclopedia (Link to the pdf posted)
• Dune CCG (CHOAM mechanics, artworks, units)
• Dune (Cryo)
• Dune 2 and Dune 2000 (Westwood)
• Dune Emperor

There ! I think I listed every ideas ever proposed in this thread.

 

[feydras]

I was searching the mod directories specifically for a Dune mod when i happily came across this thread. Unfortunately, i have no coding experience or talent but i'm happy to contribute ideas.
Disclaimer - i actually liked the first three prequels - Atreides, Harkonnen, Corrino. They weren't nearly as complex and beautful and the original novels but they were good enough pop fiction that added to the universe. I tried the Butlerian Jihad and found it awful so that was all i read.

Long list of general thoughts on the last four pages. I'll start with Factions.

I like the factions people have been proposing. Personally i like to play with a lot of civs so i would like to see as many Houses in the game as we have decent information on. Particularly if we have a leaderhead for them. So, my suggestions...

Factions
House Atreides
House Harkonnen
House Vernius
House Richese
House San Maarten
House Moritani
House Palpatine
House Fenring - the Count is a great character from the prequels
House Ordos - as a homage to the Dune 2 game
Maybe more as Supa pulled a handful from the Dune Encyclopedia

Possible factions
House Corrino - not controlled by the Emperor
Bene Tleilax - but only if they could be made to be different enough to maintain their creepiness and still balanced. They are not just another House.
Freemen - maybe, but see my idea below.

Not good Factions
Bene Geserit - all factions should have access to them. Maybe limit them to one per house similar to how missionaries are limited.
Emperor - this should be the person elected by the Lansraad. Maybe make the election permanent unless that faction is destroyed?
IX - don't know what to do with them
CHAOM - off camera
Spacing Guild - off camera

Freemen - How about a World Wonder/Project (not National Wonder) that once built allows you to build Freemen units? This way only one faction can build them. The Wonder could be called something like Freemen Alliance. Prior to that Freemen could be barbarian units harrassing everyone. Even after the alliance the barb Freemen could still be active as independents.

Smugglers could be enabled with a National Wonder, like Black market port or something. It could allow specific units that could be built with money + hammers (similar to how workers are built with food + hammers).

There are several organizations that would make great units but don't really fit as buildable units as they originate off world. Ginaz swordmasters, face dancers, and ghola. I don't know how to handle this other than to have them be mercenaries as suggested. This may place too large an emphasis on wealth unless each was tied to a National Wonder and could then be built.

- feydras

 

[feydras]

I posted the last before i read your last entry Supa, i was composing it while working and people kept bugging me, curse them. Nice clean summary.

Terrain - is there a way to set the resources like water resources so that they don't need roads to hook them to a city? If not, the deep desert could be coded using tan-colored ocean but this would limit mobility for most troops.

Religion - i like VinnoSMC's religion proposals but how about adding one founded by the Muhab'dib? It seems like this differs from, but comes out of the worship of Shai Hu'lud similarly to how Christianity came out of Judaism (or numerous other examples, you get the idea).
The Muhab'dib religion (what would it be called?) could allow the building of Feydakin as long as you have that religion as your state religion. The founding of the religion could even be tied somehow to having a Bene Geserit unit or building as a preq if we wanted to get complicated. Or else just a Bene Geserit tech.

New traits for differentiating Harkonnens from Atreides would be great. Another way to do this would be to have favored civics that have good and bad effects.

In Phase 2 of the Fall from Heaven mod the creators are incorporating alignments into the game. This may be useful to represent the various houses and their leanings towards each other if we want to prebias them. For sure Harkonnen and Atreides should be set against each other if possible.

The krys knife should be a promotion, and only available to freemen.

- feydras

 

[GarretSidzaka]

lets get a list of leader heads and assign colors to them. that way we can get started....

what projection map are we to use. a polar projection with Arakeen in the middle with what ice is left (like in book)?

 

[Magecu]

The idea of using a wonder to enable fremen is quite a nice option.

But there could be even a beter way to make them.
Now I am speculating here as I don't know enough about moding CIV 4. Probably should look a little more closely about it.

Is there a way to make separate tech trees for different civilisations ?
If it is it could be a special tech for the Atreides civilisation. And all more advanced units would be of the fremen type. Like wehn you lear gunpowder or rifle.

BTW how many units can be bound to a certain wonder.
If it is be posible to bound say 3-4 units to one wonder whe original great wonder would be great.

Say if you are in posesion of the Kwisatz Haderach wonder would give you the freemen units, and sandworms.
If you have the Imperial palace in your posesion, the sardukars would be available. And so on.

 

[Supa]

I'm still saying that Fremen HAVE to be multiple Civs. They're the main population of Arrakis, they're numerous, they have a very important role even before the Atreides coming. I don't see why you want to restrict them as a special UU (beside Dune 2 interpretation ).

 

[GarretSidzaka]

I'm still saying that Fremen HAVE to be multiple Civs. They're the main population of Arrakis, they're numerous, they have a very important role even before the Atreides coming. I don't see why you want to restrict them as a special UU (beside Dune 2 interpretation ).

i agree, but their numbers would be great area-wise, in that they would have many cities (aka sietch); but the majority of these should have a lower population (due to the high desert having little water) and be therefore limited.

Supa, what kind of projection are we going to use for a map, as well as what dimensions (70x60? or smaller?)

This map is one we all have in the back of the first dune book:

 

[Supa]

I'm still not used to Civ-4 dimensions (I'm still playing more Civ-3 ), so I can't help you with that. But I think the North Pole projection is perfect one for that project. I didn't look Gunner's map yet (I'm still not a fan of the Mapbuilder requiring to start the game), perhaps it is good enough ?

Neverless, I propose to try to make up a first testing version of the mod : A few factions (Atreides, Harkonnen, a third Great House, a few Fremen tribes), two tech tree (Great House / Fremen), trying to integrate a few special feature (Tribute, CHOAM, Spice.. We need to chose which ones we try to use now, which ones we keep for later and which one we abandon), a small map and the minimal number of units. That way, we'll get a skeleton of the mod we can test and build upon it.

To make this, I think we need to assemble a team with explicit positions and capabilities. Who can code, who can do XML, etc. Perhaps a small forum somewhere where we can start several threads.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

i can do xml, like units and statistics of things, but not python. i can also basic skins

i just downloaded the map, and im going to have a look-see later today

 

[Netnomad]

I think this is a cool idea. To make it more Civ like and to have it stand the test of time you can take factions from the prequels. I think I would be interesting to start with the Machine Crusade and move to Paul’s time.

You could add the following factions to the ones you already mentioned:
Omnibus/The Machines
The Titans
Ix
Reese (sp?)

Also you can use the Swordfighter of Gand (I think that is what they were called) as Mercs.

-NetNomad

 

[feydras]

The Freemen (divided into many tribes), Tleixaxu, and Smugglers would all make good factions. I agree that to really do the mod well the Freemen need to be in there as factions. The problem i see is that they would entail a whole lot of modifications to keep them feeling flavorwise like different factions than the Houses. This will take a lot of time to create and balance. That is primarily why i suggested initially starting the mod as a war between great houses with the others as Wonders, units, and such. Then once that framework is setup we could add in the Freemen with attention to small seitches, different tech tree, pretty much all unique units, etc... I'd hate to see the Freemen building infantry, making deals with CHAOM and Lansraad, and developing the land just like the great houses. It reminds me of Fantasy mods where you have minotaurs or elves or merfolk but they all play with the same units and buildings. (Not meant to be a hit against Fall from Heaven, i love the mod).

After the Freemen are added into the basic great houses game we could consider the Tleixaxu and Smugglers as well as the IX and debate if we wanted to work them in similarly. I do agree the Freemen are necessary as factions, i just want to see them preserved as special and i'd really like to get a playable/testable version of this out sooner rather than later.

- feydras

 

[Supa]

I understand what you mean, Feydras, I think the same way about Smugglers, Bene Tleilax and others. But I think the Fremen is such important part of Dune that it should be included from the start.

Netnomad, I think the Muad'dib period is rich enough without adding anything from the Butlerian jihad.. Especially the son version of the Butlerian jihad (was he hoping to make his own version of Terminator ?).

 

[GarretSidzaka]

I understand what you mean, Feydras, I think the same way about Smugglers, Bene Tleilax and others. But I think the Fremen is such important part of Dune that it should be included from the start.

Netnomad, I think the Muad'dib period is rich enough without adding anything from the Butlerian jihad.. Especially the son version of the Butlerian jihad (was he hoping to make his own version of Terminator ?).

i agree. we should keep it reasonably simple with factions, because we are only doing one planet (for now). i think 3-4 major playable factions and as many minor nations (unplayable) as we need.

about the bene tleilax, we could allow them as named wonders and improvements, as well as bonus units, but not a physical presence on arrakis. Did they control regions or even cities? but their influence was felt all over arrakis.

 

[Magecu]

I can see the problem of Fremen being only a unit set.

What about making transforming Barbarians into Fremens. If your house succeds to make a national wonder that would befriend the fremen you could get their tech and units. Mabye if posible by the engine become invurnable to barbarian atacks but would acuire them as your own unit instead.

The reason why I am proposing this is that by the book Atreides and Fremen got in a tight bond where in the end of the first book and after they were esentialy the same civilisation.
Esentialy Fremen were absorbed in the atreides family mixing both civilisations backgrounds into one.

 

[Jeckel]

Let me first say, nice summery Supa. Let me address a coupld points though.

1) The spice cycle.

Spoiler :

Adding in a little bit of the cycle isn't that much work. In the mapscript you are codeing where the spice resource is to appear, like any other resourse. Then, assuming we use the idea of spice resourses having a limited number of spice to mine that means the individual spice bonuses can run out, so we need some way to put new spice bonuses on the map ingame. Also assuming we have a worm unit, I don't see it being much more then a page of python to have worms spawn spice bonuses under certain conditions. Working in the sandtrout part would be a little more work, in that you would need a Sand Trout bonus and a page or two more code, but I can agree that we need not go as far as the sandtrout part, but the worm creates spice is easy enough.

Spoiler :

2) Fremen Sietches. As far as makeing cities invisible until a unit enters that square. I am thinking this could be done much like TheLopez makes his snipers invisible in the Sniper Mod. Now I am assuming there are methods to control city graphics like you can units, but even if there arn't stock methods for it I'm sure I can come up with something.


That said, I must agree we need to get a basic version or the scenario up and running. Towards that goal:

1) Factions. Atreides and Harkonnen. These two houses were agreed before anyone asked the question, so lets start with these two.

Spoiler :

Atreides
Leaders: Paul, Leto(Pauls dad) umm, don't know about leaderheads for these guys, none of them jump out at me as the choice.
Color: a blue or green
Traits: Expansionist(the extra health one) and Philisophical(more great people one)

Harkonnon
Leaders: The Baron
Leaderhead: Bismark
Color: a dark or bright red
Traits: Aggressive and.. expansionist(the less maintanince one) maybe

2) Factions. Fremen. I like the idea of multiple fremen civs, to many games have put them in the backseat. But lets start with just one fremen faction and get their stuff done, then we can add in others pretty easyly.

Spoiler :

Fremen
Leaders: Stilgar and Leit kyn(Chani's dad, the empererial egologist)
Leaderheads: Stilgar could be any leaderhead with a beard really and Leit I don't know about its just an idea that pop in just now.
Color: a sandy brown or tan.
Traits: Expansionist and either finantial or aggresive maybe.

3) Map. I say we use the one posted in this thread for now, unless someone wants to make a new one. Like I said, I am learning the mapscripting, but its going to be a few weeks before I get the DuneScript up and running.

4) Map. Who is acually going to be making the Scenario, ie useing the WB to place the cities and what not? Anyone want to volinter?

 

[GarretSidzaka]

i can handle that, i just need a list of city and sietch names that we want to use, as well as affiliations with fremen/houses. as soon as we get who will be playable civs and thier leaders (like will paul or leto be leader of atredies?) i can start ploting this map with cities.

 

[feydras]

Good starting suggestions Jeckel. Here are mine along with some thoughts on why..

Atreides leader traits - Philosophical is an excellent choice.
Leto - Philosophical and Creative
Paul - Philosophical and Spiritual

Harkonnen leader traits - The trait that decreases maintanence costs is Organized, a good choice, but i chose others. The Industrious trait can be used to reflect the significant resources of the house as well as the way they drive their workers hard.
Baron Vladimir - Financial and Industrious
Feyd-Rautha - Aggressive and Industrious

Freemen leader traits - As much as it fits themetically, i'm not sure Expansionist would be a good trait for the Freemen as it adds +2 health to each city. The main effect of this is to allow bigger cities/seitches which we may not want.
Aggressive is a good trait for them as it grants each melee unit the +10% str promo simulating their natural toughness. Organized might also be a good fit. I know it sounds funny, but it would mitigate the maintanence costs that may be high as a result of having their seitches scattered far and wide.
Stilgar - Aggressive and Organized
Liet Kynes - Aggressive and Spiritual or Creative

As you can see i'm a fan of choosing one trait that both leaders share as a way to define the faction and the other to individualize the leader's effect on the faction.

In choosing leader traits it is important to look at the effects they generate to make sure they match the theme of the factions. The effects will have a stronger impression on how the civ feels to play then the name of the trait which can be misleading. Leader personality and starting techs (when we get there) are other places we can tweak civ play style.

- feydras