MB3 - Old Testament Bunfight

[a space oddity]

Ah, the forum is available just in time. I was able to finsih my turns today, here's what happened.

pre-turn:
Everything looks ok, I consider switching the spear build to archer, but decide against it. The veto stamp should rest once in a while.
Check for trading opportunities but they're not there, yet.

IT:
Uskudar Warrior -> Warrior
Izmit Warrior -> worker
Zulus, Celts, Babylon, Aztecs, Carthagians start Great Library

1325BC - turn 1
Move the Warrior in Ad'ple
Move slider to (9.1.0), growth in 1 turn, so have to ga back next turn
No deal on the Currency yet, Poly due in 2.

IT:
AI are using their Deity RoP freely.
Anatalya Warrior -> Lib

1300BC - turn 2
Sell Rome WM for 1g
Sell Greece WM for TM and 2g
Sell Persia WM for TM and 2g
Sell Zulu WM for TM and 1g
Babylon TM for TM
Aztec WM for 1g
Iroqois WM for TM + 2g
Carthago WM for 1g
Egypt WM for 1g
Slider back to (8.1.1)

IT:
Poly comes in, start Monarchy
Greek start Great lib.

1275BC - turn 3
A Roman warrior blocks the way of our settler pair ont their ambitious journy.
We can buy Currency now (and arm and a leg...), and we can sell it to Egypt to get Construction. But we can't get much money back, since the AI who doesn't have those are penniless, mmm. If I wait maybe Egypt will have it too and we can't get Construction anymore.
I decide to buy it for WM+18gpt+80g from Babylon, who seem weak enough not to profit too much of it.
Oh dear, I can only buy Construction for WM, Currency, 6gpt and 5g. But that would mean turning off science and lux. We can get about 30g by selling literature. Maybe we can shave off 1 gpt that way.
Sell Lit for WM+17g to Carthage and to Persia for WM+16g, Now we can buy Construction from Egypt for Currency, 4gpt and 42g. I make the deal, sorry if this is .
It means we have to settle the pair now on the 2E-from-white spot.

Press enter

IT:
Our Horses are connected.
C'ple Settler -> Settler
Iroqois start Great Library

1250BC - turn 4
I somehow missed the age turn message, we get Feudalism as our free tech!
Babylon has Monotheism, they'll pay WM, 16gpt and 109g for Feudalism, but do we want them to have it? We need our money back though... so I make the deal.
Sell Feudalism to the Celts for WM + 302g (all they have).
Decide not to sell it to Egypt and Aztec, they're not rich enough.

Switch Konya to Lib, as soon as the Silk is connected the forest can be chopped, we need culture there. I know we need to be prepared for a fight with the Aztec, but we can better use vets for that.

IT:
Rome declares war on the Zulu.
Uskudar Archer -> Horseman
Babs start Sun Tzu's

1225BC - turn 5
Buy 2 workers (WM and 2g) from Greece for Poly and Lit. My motive besides the workers? Keep the world balanced, we don't want any of them grow big now. But maybe I've just put them out of the game...

IT:
Brusa Temple -> Settler
Aydin Warrior -> Worker

1200BC - turn 6
The second settler pair arrived at the white dot (I hope, I can't reach the CFC ATM).
The first is on its way to the Iron & Wine spot and doesn't see borders. [dance]

IT:
The Aztecs want to swap TMs, OK (they are broke).
Ad'ple Barracks -> Horse
Greeks start Great Lib
Aztec start Great Wall

1175BC - turn 7
Not much to tell, I still can't reach the CFC so I decide to move the pair on the river. It will cause us to lose the use of 1 BG tile in our core but I decide the free aqueduct is worth it.
Izmit has too many unhappy faces but will build a worker next turn, can I leave it? No, I decide to hire a Scientist.

IT:
Iroqs wants to see us, they want to share WMs, sure if you throw in everything you have (1g..). Deal!
Oh, oh an Egyptian settler pair will beat us to the iron & wine spot
Izmit Worker -> Worker
Persia and Carthage start Great Library

1150BC - turn 8
Found Adana, start Lib.

IT:
Babylon demands WM and 41g. Mmm, we're still paying them 2gpt will they start war anyway? I give in. If we want war we gonna be the ones to start it.
The Egyptian pair moves one step further, haha we can found where we stand claiming atleast the Iron and still have a chance for the wines..
Const'ple Settler -> Spear (can/should? be vetoed)

1125BC - turn 9
Found Sinop, ideally it should be 1 tile North but if we can grow the borders soonish, it's a sweet spot, start Lib. We need to get some mil. in there soon though.
The Roman fortify an archer next to Brusa, I make an unconventinal move: I buy their WM for WM and 1gpt, hoping to buy peace. If they attack we'll still have our money...

IT:
Rome move one more warrior near Brusa

1100BC - turn 10
Uskudar Horse -> Horse
Move troops toward Sinop.
Sell WM for WM+5g to Greece
Sell WM for WM+5g to Persia
Sell WM for WM+5g to Zulus
Sell WM for WM+4g to Celts
Sell WM for WM+5g to Egypt
Sell WM for WM+4g to Babylon
Sell WM for WM+6g to Aztecs
Sell WM for WM+4g to Iroquois
Sell WM for WM+8g to Carthage

That's it. I hate to leave the game with Brusa so under threat, It is currently building a settler but can be switched to spear without loss of shields. I'll leave it up to the next player to decide.
Still an amazing game.

---------------> the zipped save

Current situation, the settler pair can move to the yellow spot, that amazingly is on water!

 

[mad-bax]

Karasu: You are up

The save is <<here>>.

I haven't looked at the save yet. But things look to be going well. A war between Rome and Shaka is just

 

[a space oddity]

Oops, sorry, I didn't check the link. Thanks for correcting it Mad

edit: I'll fix it anyway.

edit2: The whit dot was in a deifferent place then I thought it was... oh well, what's done is done, we'll have to live with the spots the cities are in now. Won't be too hard, I hope.

 

[Northern Pike]

You ended up settling on green +2E, which is fine. Good work grabbing the wines and iron.

Our only security against being sneak-attacked by the Romans is that we're paying them 1 gpt, and that they're polite. I would still advocate an RoP with them, which we can now easily afford. I appreciate mad-bax's point that for them to attack us from within our borders would be RoP-rape anyway, but I'm not convinced that the AI is as reluctant to commit technical as real RoP violations. I've never been attacked by an AI civ with which I had an actual RoP agreement. I've been attacked several times in the sort of position we now occupy relative to the Romans.

Izmit badly needs a cultural expansion, given the proximity of the two Roman cities, and should probably switch to a temple without completing its worker.

We need to discuss whether we want our next government to be monarchy or republic (my preference). If the verdict is for republic, we can change our minimum tech run to that without too much loss of time.

 

[a space oddity]

I agree on the RoP with Rome, a you say we can easily afford it. The disadvantage of having as much money as we do now is being a target for demands. We probably should switch to building warriors and connect our Iron to spend a little of the money.

Izmit could also build a Library, which is cheaper for us, being scientific. I noticed how very efficient our cities work hardly any shields lost everybody. I'm not on the save right now, so I don't know how a Temple there compares to a Library, shieldlosswise.

I selected Monarchy because I understood the goal was to do a lot of fighing in this game. Having managed to grab a relative large chunck of land may change our preference. You're right, we need to discuss it.

 

[Karasu]

Got it.

I'll RoP(e) Rome first thing, and hope they don't start a war...
I'll also check Izmit, see where to expand and whatever you want.

But first, I need a strong

'cos it's Monday, I've got a terrible headache and I know this is going to be a bad day...

 

[mad-bax]

My preference would be for republic. My guess ATM would be that wars will be better fought with MAs and so should be fairly shortlived.

Also I am all for building libraries instead of temples. We shouldn't waste our civ trait.

The Romans started quickly but I think they may be running out of steam. The war with the Zulu will halve their military I expect. They sent a total of 9 units through our territory towards Zululand on my turn, mostly warriors. I don't expect they will come back.

 

[a space oddity]

@Karasu: proost! Hope it helps. (hairs of the dog and all that...)

 

[Karasu]

Quickly checked the game (between one reboot of my system and another one...).

I have the same impression as regards Rome.
Moreover, they barely managed to get an Iron source, but in Pisae (far off to the east) -it will take a lot of time for them to connect it to the core (if we let them do that... :devil2: ).

I really hope that after the RoP they will move that Archer-warrior couple away from Bursa. But I would consider them as a nice candidate for a short war, when we are ready.
I am looking with eager eyes to the area south of Iznik - Hispalis...

In the meantime, and still hoping that they don't start anything untimely, I will get one-two cities towards Sinop.

Republic: why not...


P.S. I did have a Guinness at lunch, but it wasn't enough. I think I'm going home to drink some more (at least I will know why I've got a headache... )

 

[Northern Pike]

Karasu, your beer-drinking smiley is absolutely .

I wouldn't object to building a library first in Izmit. I'm always influenced by the fact that at deity a temple's happiness boost is permanently useful, a library's scientific contribution only occasionally so. But in this case there's a lot to be said for speed of construction.

 

[Karasu]

Pre-turn

Now explain me this: we are LEADING in tech.
On Deity.
At 1100 BC.
What's happened?

Anyway, let's get things going.
Ring old Julius: Sign RoP for WM + 19 gp + 1gpt (had we payed cash, it would have been only 36 gp, but I take this as a small extra insurance against their breaking the deal...).
He wanted Feudalism, but I preferred withholding it.

Checked research: we have Monarchy in 33, anything else in 40. I'm not sure about changing it now: whatever we do, the AI will discover it earlier than us, unless they go for Republic or a MA tech. I will leave Monarchy and possibly use it for trading later on -we're not investing a lot of money on research, anyway.

Press Enter, hold breath.


IT - Roman troops move towards Celts border. <Release breath>.


Turn 1 - 1075 BC
Iznik: Barracks - Spearman.
We have 12 Warriors. I think a small Swordsmen Army could be used for a raid on an unaware neighbour. Let's make it 15.

Since the Romans did not attack, I take the freedom to change Horseman in Adrianople into Granary.

Oh, right. Babylonians are up Republic and Monotheism (plus, they already have Feudalism).
Romans have also discovered the Republic, and have Feudalism.
So, Feudalism is for sale at fourth-hand tech, which makes it likely not to be available in the next couple of turns.

Sold Construction to Zulus for 44 (all he has -they are going to get it anyway).

Uskudar changed to Warrior.


IT: Rome signed alliance with Carthage against Zulu.


Turn 2 - 1050 BC
Uskudar: Warrior - Worker.

We can sell Dyes to Brennus. I am waiting to use it for Republic (hopefully).
Egypt and Carthage are piling up cash. I do not sell them Feudalism yet hoping they use the money to buy Republic or something tradeable.

Sold Polytheism to Persia for WM, 2 gp and 1 Worker.


Turn 3 - 1025 BC
Moved Workers around.


IT: Carthaginians establish an embassy with us.


Turn 4 - 1000 BC
Brusa: Settler - Barracks
Konya: Library - Barracks
Uskudar: Worker - Warrior


IT: Aztecs build the Great Lighthouse


Turn 5 - 975 BC
Constantinople: Warrior - Worker
Iznik: Spear - Horse
Changed Uskudar to Spear
Multiple founded: Library.

The Celts have beaten us to a possible city founded close to the cows north of Multiple (Burdigala). I will send the settler in that area anyway -no point in having it wander around (a border expansion can still give us one cow, although it will probably upset the Celts a little bit).


IT: Aztecs join Rome and Carthage against Zulus.


Turn 6 - 950 BC
Adrianople: Granary - Worker
Aydin: Worker - Library


IT: troops movements around and within our borders.
Monarchy has been discovered.


Turn 7 - 925 BC
Constantinople: worker - Horseman
Pe-ople founded: Library.

Uff. The gamble payed off. Egypt have spent all their money on Monarchy. I leave Engineering as the next tech.
Babylon has it, as well as Celts and Rome.
Buy Monarchy from Cleo for Feudalism, WM + 30 gp (!)

There seems to be no way to buy The Republic now. I'll wait before we change gov't.
Northern Iron connected.


IT: Egypt demands us an outrageous amount of money. I politely tell Cleopatra to take her request and <non-translatable italian folk expression>.
Guess what. She declares war! Well, this game was a bit too quiet anyway...


Turn 8 - 900 BC
Adrianople: Worker - Settler
Uskudar: Spear - Horse
Izmit: Warrior - Pike

Carthage: give Feudalism for 81 gp + Alliance versus Egypt.
Embassy with Persia (42 gp). Gave them Currency + Construction for Alliance vs Egypt
Persia: gave Monarchy + Feudalism for Monotheism (his free tech)
Rome: gave Monotheism for Republic + 240 gp + WM
Aztecs: gave Monotheism (not Monarchy nor Republic, let's keep them in Despotism a little longer...) for 107 gp (all they had). Ops. I forgot to include an alliance against Egypt.
Celts: trade our excess Dyes for 150 gp (he wanted some gold for his Ivory, but I wanted cash for upgrading the Warriors).


IT: Rome got Persia too against the Zulu. Our people love us.


Turn 9 - 875 BC
Just to add more people to the party, I signed a MA with Greece against Egypt for Monarchy (took all their 14 gp in the process). I didn't want to bring them too into the MA yet.


Turn 10 - 850 BC
Antalya: Library - Barracks
Lots of Aztec troops too. I sign a RoP with them.


The situation:

CONCLUSIONs
We can choose between Monarchy and Republic. I didn't switch immediately, as I felt that this may need more discussions among us -we didn't waste too many turns in Despotism, I believe.

We also have enough money to upgrade to Swordsmen (I didn't do that).
I would like to give a little hit to the Romans as soon as our RoP expires (their troops will be quite busy with the Zulus in the meantime, possibly even within Celts territory). I wouldn't mind getting Hispalis, Viroconium and Cumae to complete the expansion in our starting valley.

There is still the risk that Egyptian units get to Sinop. I tried to speed up connection to it and one - two Spearmen are on their way there. Hopefully, Carthage and Persia will keep them busy.
To be honest, I might have given in to Cleo's request, but I was feeling a bit "polemic" -and I thought we might run the risk. We may even take a shot on Asyut...

If we feel that more tech trading is needed, Greece can still be gifted Currency and Construction (we would still be up Republic). I don't think it is really necessary, though.

I tried to balance the building (Libraries, Barracks) with military and workers. Feel free to veto any ongoing building in any city.


A World at War

 

[TedJackson]

And you wonder why I think you're a warmonger


Ted

 

[Northern Pike]

Got it. Karasu, that was such a bonanza of techs this is my chance to use the :santa: icon.

I welcome opinions on the republic/monarchy question.

 

[mad-bax]

Karasu: Nice

So the bunfight begins. The Celts are not at war with anyone.
What about declaring on the Zulu and signing an MA with the Celts against them? Or are false wars beneath this particular team

 

[Karasu]

@Ted, I am not really a warmonger. I'd rather see my role as that of adding some movement to idle moments in a game...

Besides, MB1 has clearly demonstrated who is the real bloodthirsty carnage lover among us...


Back on-topic: I only regret not having drawn the Aztec into the party (but they are already at war with Zulus). The Celts were too rich and didn't lack any tech for a MA to be possible -I can't see how we could get them involved right now.
But, of course, I have absolutely nothing against false wars (did I need to say that?).

My feeling was for a quiet buildup and a blitzkrieg on Rome later on -which would be ok with Republic, btw.
I don't know if (in Rep) we could sustain a large army in this game. If you think so, then Republic can be our choice.

 

[a space oddity]

Monarchy and Republic available... [dance]

Everyone (but the Celts) at war...

A dogpile on Egypt...

Karasu...

On Monarchy vs Republic. Our (temporary?) reliance on MA's will mean we can't get out of wars on *our* timing may mean we need to go with Monarchy. But I have not much experience with Deity, so I may well be too careful. I'd rather be a republic, but I don't like the idea of being forced to switch at some point and having two anarchy periods.

 

[mad-bax]

Yes. This is the challenge of this game. Everyone bar us will be in their GA now or very soon. So my preference would be for republic, and fight predominantly with knights, using the extra movement to start and end turns outside enemy borders where possible. That isn't to say that we cant use swords, but my feeling at the moment is that our warriors are widely dispersed and it will be sometime b4 we can replace them with Pikes.

IIRC the warrior upgrade will now give us MI anyway, so we could use them to take the Roman towns Karasu suggests.

Any road up, turns of anarchy in a deity game are a killer, so I think we should go to Republic and stay there. Democracy will not be required as we are industrious and we don't have an unmanageable amount of jungle to clear.

I also think we need another 3 or 4 workers pretty quick as some towns are working unimproved tiles. I also believe we should build the FP immidiately, if not sooner.

I think things will get tough during NPs turns and will stay tough untill we get steam.

 

[TedJackson]

As fast domination is our desired victory I think that Monarchy would be a better bet than Republic.

We'll be buying all our techs anyway so why not take advantage of the 'free garrison troops' offered by Monarchy? We couldn't care less about culture and a Spaceship is off the card.

Just my thoughts.


Ted

 

[Earp]

I agree with Ted. I'd much prefer a Monarchy over a Republic. I think the benefits of military police, free unit support, and reduced WW of a Monarchy outweigh the extra commerce and slightly reduced corruption of a Republic.

 

[Karasu]

I admit no sufficient experience at this level to know what's best from this point of view.
Indeed, if we need to expand a large empire (i.e., hundreds of units) and won't be able to sell techs for the upkeep, I can't see how can we go for Republic -that's what I was asking in the last post.

I can't estimate the impact of MP, but I hope we will not need it when (...if ...) we build and conquer a large number of cities.