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Roe vs Wade overturned

likening abortion regulation to slavery is neither productive nor accurate.
WHOOSH! went the sound of the context going right over your head.
that's closer to reality for men in some cases, but men are also denied the same degree of reproductive choice/control in this context.
This type of argument (ie men and mandatory child support) has some interesting merits, if you put aside the fact that the man does not actually have to carry the baby. However, if you are willing to put that pretty substantial aspect totally aside and consider the question in that completely imaginary, albeit totally unrealistic and impractical bubble, simply for purposes of discussion, I would tend to grant you that the child support issue can raise some "fairness" considerations worthy of some thought exercises.

I guess one example that springs to mind, would be if we truly could safely, easily, and cheaply remove the necessity of carrying the fetus, without killing it... how would that impact folks' view on things like abortion and child support?
 
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That is not what I said.

It's implied. Sympathy in the very lowest tier of abstract for people you don't know, and more for someone you do know. I'd be curious as to how far that in-person sympathy would go.

All you've been offering is 'splaining, and that's really not helpful at all.
 
don't know what political grouping you're talking about. maybe one that's created conveniently to try to make people who disagree with you look bad? not many people who favor slavery today, and the logic that would justify abortion regulation (protecting individual rights of fetus/mother in differing capacities depending on specific policy) is in conflict with the logic that would justify slavery (denial of individual rights). i don't think quoted can reasonably be construed as a good faith representation of those who advocate some abortion regulation. i'll grant you states/countries going for a full ban are closer to what you say, though that still has some significant differences to slavery/indentured servitude.


I mean the political grouping that still says it was the South's moral and legal right to secede in order to –as General Lee himself wrote down– preserve the institution of slavery, which was intended to civilise (or domesticate, depending on your POV) black slaves imported from Africa and their descendants.

The underlying ideology is the same: they are control mechanisms based on Biblical eisegesis.
Women stay at home. They are forced not just to have children in the biological sense but also to put up with the expense (even in cases of rape, where you cannot claim that they were careless or ignorant) in time, money and effort to raise a child and then the state just says ‘have it’ and doesn't, either, make the father nor the state help in any way, because this is in the name of the rights of the unborn, who stop being unborn the very moment that they are born.
Slaves were supposedly civilised and bettered by their subjection to white owners even if this meant that they worked for nothing and that they could legally be killed or sold away from their friends and families as punishment for bettering themselves by e.g. learning to read and write or, say, complaining about their permanent state of dispossession.

In both cases it's all the benefits for one, all the costs for another.
 
.... or a bus, car, coach, plane, train etc. trip to a pro-choice state
I didn't realise you were so generously offering to pay. For the transport and any legal fees the home state may leverage against the parent for seeking cross-state treatment.
 
I didn't realise you were so generously offering to pay. For the transport and any legal fees the home state may leverage against the parent for seeking cross-state treatment.
Not to mention assorted psychiatric care that will be needed by this woman for being forced to carry a fetus that will never become a viable human being.

I have to wonder how the funeral home industry figures into all this. Dead/unviable fetuses = $$$$$.
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrania

A woman in Louisiana has been refused an abortion for a foetus diagnosed with acrania. 75% likelihood it will be stillborn, no possibility it will survive if born alive.
Inhuman beyond all reason. The people responsible for this don't even seem to be sentient; Just a parasitic wasp nerve ganglia where a person's mind should be.
 
There was a time when abortion was illegal in Ireland.

So Irish women travelled to the UK for their abortion.

Best to avoid having the same laws applying everywhere.
 
Inhuman beyond all reason. The people responsible for this don't even seem to be sentient; Just a parasitic wasp nerve ganglia where a person's mind should be.
I can only assume that these people only think it would be perfectly fine for a woman to give birth to a baby in this condition because they've clearly made it this far in life without a brain themselves.
 
Inhuman beyond all reason. The people responsible for this don't even seem to be sentient; Just a parasitic wasp nerve ganglia where a person's mind should be.
I have that thought fairly frequently.
 
I guess one example that springs to mind, would be if we truly could safely, easily, and cheaply remove the necessity of carrying the fetus, without killing it... how would that impact folks' view on things like abortion and child support?
this is a good question. really good. i don't think it would change child support in practicality (though imo that should change for other reasons). i also wonder how fast this becomes viable/practical in the hypothetical, and also whether how quickly it happens should matter if we assume that we could do it safely/easily/cheaply. this is a really interesting thought experiment and i think it would influence my preference on when to assign personhood.
A woman in Louisiana has been refused an abortion for a foetus diagnosed with acrania. 75% likelihood it will be stillborn, no possibility it will survive if born alive.
imo louisiana policy is not okay. but i probably won't need to argue with anyone here much when asserting places like la, tx, or malta are not okay :/.

The underlying ideology is the same: they are control mechanisms based on Biblical eisegesis.
this is a reach to shove a square peg into something that isn't square.

doesn't, either, make the father nor the state help in any way
that does not appear to be true in most places in the us. there are cases of the father being compelled to help even when he prefers abortion. there are edge cases where that compulsion can't square ethically (father was underage at time of conception while the mother was not aka statutory rape, or stealthing scenarios). iirc, the case i heard about stealthing by the women where the man was compelled to pay was out or texas. at least texas is consistent in its controlling nonsense i guess, but being consistently authoritarian isn't the aiming point i'd prefer.

In both cases it's all the benefits for one, all the costs for another.
no, this is where you're getting into the weeds and why you shouldn't be equating these two things. unless you're constraining the hypothetical specifically/only to cases involving rape or fetuses that won't live/are a threat to the mother, where it's at least closer.
 
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FTC sues data broker for selling millions of people's 'precise' location info
The Federal Trade Commission has accused data broker Kochava of trampling over people's privacy by selling the "precise" whereabouts of hundreds of millions of mobile devices.​
The American watchdog alleged in a lawsuit that Kochava's data feeds, which are sold via publicly accessible marketplaces, reveal individuals' visits to reproductive health clinics, places of worship, homeless and domestic violence shelters, addiction recovery facilities, and other sensitive places.​
Kochava can get this data from Android and iOS apps and websites that embed its tracker code. Developers use this toolkit to monitor their users – figuring out what they are interested in, how they use an app, tying their activities to a targeted advertising ID, and so forth – and Kochava would get a real-time feed of information to collect and sell. According to the FTC, Kochava also buys up personal records from other brokers to resell.​
"In numerous instances, [the] defendant has sold, licensed, or otherwise transferred precise geolocation data associated with unique persistent identifiers that reveal consumers' visits to sensitive locations," according to the FTC's lawsuit [PDF] filed Monday in a US federal district court.​
Selling this type of personal information could cause "substantial injury to consumers" such as stalking, discrimination, job loss, and physical violence, the FTC argues. As such, the regulator claims Kochava is breaking American consumer protection law.​
According to the court documents:​
The data may be used to identify consumers who have visited an abortion clinic and, as a result, may have had or contemplated having an abortion. In fact, in just the data Kochava made available in the Kochava Data Sample, it is possible to identify a mobile device that visited a women's reproductive health clinic and trace that mobile device to a single-family residence. The data set also reveals that the same mobile device was at a particular location at least three evenings in the same week, suggesting the mobile device user's routine. The data may also be used to identify medical professionals who perform, or assist in the performance, of abortion services.​
This info was listed for sale on the AWS Marketplace until June, according to the FTC. For $25,000, anyone with a free AWS account could subscribe to the location data feed, the lawsuit alleges.​
A sample of this data examined by the FTC included precise, timestamped location records collected from more than 61 million unique mobile devices in the previous week. When combined with the mobile device's advertising ID (MAID), it would be easy to identify the phone's user, the regulator said.​
Kochava also said users opted into having their data collected when they installed or used apps containing tracking code. "Even if an injury to the consumer did indeed occur," the biz added, "it is reasonably avoidable by the consumer themselves by way the opt-out provision to allow the data collection. In other words, the consumer agreed to share its location data with an app developer."​
 
We could be using this to put political pressure against the tech companies constantly monitoring us for private benefit, even though we're already frogs in the pot
 
I have been reassessing my charity, which I try to do annually. Two ideas have combined in my head, the first is that "give directly" might be a very efficient way of helping people who are much poorer than I am. The second is that advocates do so much of the scary work when it comes to protecting people.

I wonder if anybody here subscribes to or is a patreon style supporter of queer advocates in the desperately poor regions of the world? Any insight on how to curate that list, and then how to judge it? Strikes me that I'd be both speeding both economic progress AND social progress by finding a good target for these dollars.


With regards to flight from restrictive regimes, when I looked into this for a while, all of the reputable organizations I could find were organizations that helped queer people flee those environments. I wasn't able to find direct donation to any local (for them) advocacy groups.

I had to move up the income ladder before I could find people I could give money to to help advocate, which was against the spirit, or at least part of the spirit, of the effort.

Deciding whether to fund flight or political change really isn't an easy calculation!
 
Accounting is tricky, agreed.
 
With regards to flight from restrictive regimes, when I looked into this for a while, all of the reputable organizations I could find were organizations that helped queer people flee those environments. I wasn't able to find direct donation to any local (for them) advocacy groups.

I had to move up the income ladder before I could find people I could give money to to help advocate, which was against the spirit, or at least part of the spirit, of the effort.

Deciding whether to fund flight or political change really isn't an easy calculation!

Would those who flee, turn into stronger advocates for change, than funding local advocacy groups?
 
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