W.i.n.t.e.r said:So the conclusion so far is: they should, but if so with a twist, but they don't have to- and hopefully someone will some day make a mounted muyahedin
That would about seem to sum it up.-Oz
Should cavalry upgrade to Tanks?
- Thread starter ThinkerRCB
- Start date
That would about seem to sum it up.-Oz
CelestinChild
Lazy ***der
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Others have mentioned it, and I'm considering also:
Cavalry should lead to mech infantry.
If you look at say America, the same regiments that rode around on horses 100 years ago ride around in APCs today. The object is speed, whereas with tanks the point is being armoured, which necessitates a brand new start.
Cavalry should lead to mech infantry.
If you look at say America, the same regiments that rode around on horses 100 years ago ride around in APCs today. The object is speed, whereas with tanks the point is being armoured, which necessitates a brand new start.
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
The difference between an attack 6 unit and an attack 16 unit would be the largest proportional jump of the entire game and highly imbalancing.
CelestinChild
Lazy ***der
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Best to do is probably add an intermediate unit. Cavalry -> Mech Infantry is a huge leap too, but if you add say, Mobile Infantry, it could represent half-tracks and such and act as a step in-between.
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
What about official games? GOTM? MP?Supa said:
The game should be balanced by default, not necessary through modding.
jzsf
Prince
I think not, bec. they are WERY different units. It's ok, they are both offensive, but how can a cavarly get steel body and turrets?
jzsf said:I think not, bec. they are WERY different units. It's ok, they are both offensive, but how can a cavarly get steel body and turrets?
Um, by having their horses taken away and given (typically) armored cars or helicopters ...
,Oz
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
Medieval Inf upgrade to Guerillas, same as with Longbowmen. Those aren't very similar.jzsf said:I think not, bec. they are WERY different units. It's ok, they are both offensive, but how can a cavarly get steel body and turrets?
As I said, the main issue is gamebalance.
For a marginal cost the instant ability to upgrade 6 attack units to 16 attack would be imbalancing. The first civ to Motorized Transport could conquer the world easily.
Goldflash
Civ III Modder, Civ VII Player
W.i.n.t.e.r said:Yes, those special forces guys sure know how to party
perhaps someone will make some sort of mounted muyahedin (i.e. Guerilla on Horseback) as a no-resource unit in the tank slot
I've been asking for modern Cavalry for months.
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
Horses aren't used by the militarys of the modern world. The machine gun rendered all horse-mounted units obsolete in World War One. The only officials who still use Horses are Police and Canadian Mountys.
Sword_Of_Geddon said:
"Cavalry" is perhaps a misnomer -- "Horse Mounted Infantry" is far more accurate -- and, as mentioned earlier in the thread, yes, some modern militaries do indeed still deploy them in remote/rugged regions etc.
-Oz
A oz said, It's a historical fact that at the beginning of the vietnam war, the US military took their old cavalry divisions and trained them to fight from Helicopters. If someone is making a mod, the possibility is there to upgrade Cavalry to some kind of Helicopter Gunship after the discovery of advanced flight. Would be interesting to have some kind of non-tank attack unit during that time.
Jon Shafer
Civilization 5 Designer
Uhhh, hate to break this to you but they didn't go from horses to helicopters. The 1st Cavalry Division hasn't used horses since 1943.
Trip said:
Yeah, I'd say the progression should be:
Cavalry (Mounted Infantry) > Armored Cavalry (light AFVs) > Choppers
-- With the caveat that, without the strategic resources for either of the upgrades, a "modern cavalry" alternative should definitely be available.
-Oz
Camber
Resident Family Therapist
The main problem with leaving cavalry without an upgrade path is that they aren't the same in the modern age as they were in the late Enlightenment era. Better weapons, different clothing, etc. Even the cavalry of WWI used better weapons than their 1700s counterparts. So I would agree that a horse-mounted Industrial unit is the best solution. Give them about the same attack stats as the infantry, very poor defensive stats, and movement of 3. Then in the Modern era, you could upgrade again with fully automatic weapons. Attack would improve a bit, but the defense and movement would stay about the same.
Kinboat
Conan the Librarian
I got interested in this thread enough to do a little research... Someone mentioned hearing about a possible US cavalry charge in the pacific theater of WW2... This is what I came up with (didn't turn out to be much of a charge )
"In the time of Japanese invasion of the Philippines in December 1941, the US Army had there a 26th Cavalry, the Philippine Scout Regiment, under the command of Colonel Clinton A. Pierce, based at Fort Stotsenburg, Pampanga, about 100 km north of Manila, and nedless to say it was the only effective combat unit in the area.
The regiment was apparently badly beaten by Japanese aircraft, especially during the "Great Retreat" towards Bataan Peninsula, when they met some Japanese tanks in the middle of the highway. Panic broke out and some troopers rushed to and fro a waiting orders, crushing into others. The horses were driven wild by the shouting, and many of them bolted. Some horsemen were hit by the hail of fire from the Japanese tanks, while others were trampled to death by the terrified horses as they broke loose and ran in the darkness. On December 24th, the regiment was reduced to about 500 men, and it engaged in a skirmish at Binagoan, where the cavalry, despite the Japanese superiority, attacked the Japanese vanguard again and again, for what their commander, Colonel Pierce, was later promoted by Major-Generak Jonathan Wainwright into rank of Brigadier-General. Perhaps this the cavalry attack you have it in mind, in which Edwin Price Ramsay took part. I could find no other records about any other cavalry charges made by the 26th cavarly, as they safely reached Bataan, where they were engaged in a static fighting, until sharing the same faith as all other US and Filipino troops. Only three of four members of the 26th Cavalry apparently managed to save themselves from the encirclement."
There was also a British charge in WW2...
"The last British cavalry charge in the history of British Army was made in the Pacific Theatre, in Burma in March 1942 near Toungoo about 250 km north of Rangoon, when Captain Arthur Sandeman with his column of two British officers and circa 100 troopers of the Burmanese Frontier Force aka 2nd Frontier Forces column was ambushed by the Japanese. Sandeman quickly re-assembled his men after the starting suprise, and led them with the battle cry "Sat Sri Akal" into a real cavalry charge against the Japanese positions. They never reached it, as Captaina Sandeman as well as all his men were literally wiped out by heavy machine-gun fire."
It would seem the Cavalry Charge is dead... Although I came across this quote... When asked when the last cavalry charge was Dr Stephen Badsey said... "It hasn't happened yet"
I would think the Cavalry should not upgrade unless one of two things were changed... 1) the cost of the tank was increased to make upgrading more expensive... 2) an intermediary unit was added, such as an armoured car.
Most of these points have already been mentioned however.
In support of option number two I'd just like to mention the Queensland Mounted Infantry from Australia. Apparently the were a horse mounted unit until around 1949 when they were given armoured cars and recon vehicles. Then they were switched to a heavy tank unit until finally being changed to an anti-tank unit a few years later.
)"In the time of Japanese invasion of the Philippines in December 1941, the US Army had there a 26th Cavalry, the Philippine Scout Regiment, under the command of Colonel Clinton A. Pierce, based at Fort Stotsenburg, Pampanga, about 100 km north of Manila, and nedless to say it was the only effective combat unit in the area.
The regiment was apparently badly beaten by Japanese aircraft, especially during the "Great Retreat" towards Bataan Peninsula, when they met some Japanese tanks in the middle of the highway. Panic broke out and some troopers rushed to and fro a waiting orders, crushing into others. The horses were driven wild by the shouting, and many of them bolted. Some horsemen were hit by the hail of fire from the Japanese tanks, while others were trampled to death by the terrified horses as they broke loose and ran in the darkness. On December 24th, the regiment was reduced to about 500 men, and it engaged in a skirmish at Binagoan, where the cavalry, despite the Japanese superiority, attacked the Japanese vanguard again and again, for what their commander, Colonel Pierce, was later promoted by Major-Generak Jonathan Wainwright into rank of Brigadier-General. Perhaps this the cavalry attack you have it in mind, in which Edwin Price Ramsay took part. I could find no other records about any other cavalry charges made by the 26th cavarly, as they safely reached Bataan, where they were engaged in a static fighting, until sharing the same faith as all other US and Filipino troops. Only three of four members of the 26th Cavalry apparently managed to save themselves from the encirclement."
There was also a British charge in WW2...
"The last British cavalry charge in the history of British Army was made in the Pacific Theatre, in Burma in March 1942 near Toungoo about 250 km north of Rangoon, when Captain Arthur Sandeman with his column of two British officers and circa 100 troopers of the Burmanese Frontier Force aka 2nd Frontier Forces column was ambushed by the Japanese. Sandeman quickly re-assembled his men after the starting suprise, and led them with the battle cry "Sat Sri Akal" into a real cavalry charge against the Japanese positions. They never reached it, as Captaina Sandeman as well as all his men were literally wiped out by heavy machine-gun fire."
It would seem the Cavalry Charge is dead... Although I came across this quote... When asked when the last cavalry charge was Dr Stephen Badsey said... "It hasn't happened yet"
I would think the Cavalry should not upgrade unless one of two things were changed... 1) the cost of the tank was increased to make upgrading more expensive... 2) an intermediary unit was added, such as an armoured car.
Most of these points have already been mentioned however.
In support of option number two I'd just like to mention the Queensland Mounted Infantry from Australia. Apparently the were a horse mounted unit until around 1949 when they were given armoured cars and recon vehicles. Then they were switched to a heavy tank unit until finally being changed to an anti-tank unit a few years later.
tastybrain
Chieftain
The u.s. military decommissioned thousands of horses when they considered them obsolete. They didn't disassemble them and use their parts to make armour divisions. I think upgrading to anything similar to a tank, anything mechanical from a horse-riding unit, is absurd.
However, i do think it's a good idea to have some more modern/industrial units to carry the utility of the horses unit over into later ages. Maybe a horse-borne guerilla unit or such.
However, i do think it's a good idea to have some more modern/industrial units to carry the utility of the horses unit over into later ages. Maybe a horse-borne guerilla unit or such.
Ekmek
on steam: ekmek_e
no way. horses and oil are a dividing line in my epic mod...
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