[TEASER] Screenshot for new super secret unreleased mod component

[Aussie_Lurker]

Wow, TheLopez, this looks waaaayyy cool-looks like I chose just the right moment to come back from my recuperation. I definitely love the idea of processing resources-like steel from iron and coal, composites from oil and even oil from coal-but I still hold that a semi-quantitative resource system strikes the right balance between gameplay and realism.
For example, if you have a system where each unit needs X resources to function, then the game simply becomes an exercise in book keeping, IMO.
However, if you have a system whereby the ratio of resources to cities and/or resources to units effects the COST of said cities/units, for instance, then having a quantity of any given resource becomes important, without being an absolute neccessity. Other options around the ratio idea might involve lost food/production/health/happiness in cities and/or reduced unit strength/healing times.
Anyway, hope that makes sense, and congrats once again TheLopez on some truly fine looking work!

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Rabbit, White]

WR, does this mean if I get the finite resources mod completed you'll do one or more Dynasty Mod leaders for me?

You don't give up do you... ok I'll do at least two... but I pick which ones

 

[Rabbit, White]

Wow, TheLopez, this looks waaaayyy cool-looks like I chose just the right moment to come back from my recuperation. I definitely love the idea of processing resources-like steel from iron and coal, composites from oil and even oil from coal-but I still hold that a semi-quantitative resource system strikes the right balance between gameplay and realism.
For example, if you have a system where each unit needs X resources to function, then the game simply becomes an exercise in book keeping, IMO.
However, if you have a system whereby the ratio of resources to cities and/or resources to units effects the COST of said cities/units, for instance, then having a quantity of any given resource becomes important, without being an absolute neccessity. Other options around the ratio idea might involve lost food/production/health/happiness in cities and/or reduced unit strength/healing times.
Anyway, hope that makes sense, and congrats once again TheLopez on some truly fine looking work!

Aussie_Lurker.

You know what, I think this actually a great idea. I think the system where the cost of units increases as the resources/units decreases would be most intuitive - it's essentially like saying that because you only have 2 oil wells instead of 5 (for example) the output of oil slows down and thus production of oil based units slows down, which makes a lot of sense.

 

[Maniac]

Great Mod!
Will it also be possible to let terrain improvements, specialists and unit provide (or by a negative value consume) resources?

 

[TheLopez]

You don't give up do you... ok I'll do at least two... but I pick which ones

No, I don't . I will be happy with whatever you decide to contribute!

 

[Grey Fox]

I was thinking of doing something like this. Before cIV came out, I was planning to do a Pharao similar mod, where you needed clay to produce Pottery etc, and then u could trade that. But this is even better. ^_^

 

[suspendinlight]

The plan is to have this be part of the Dynamic Resources mod... and that's all I'm going to say

Sounds like one of the mods I've been waiting for. Now, I still wonder how you will get the AI to behave properly, but I'm sure you'll figure something out. Looking forward to this one.

 

[dh_epic]

While I'm not particularly crazy about resource management, I know a LOT of people have been asking for this kind of thing. I'm curious to see where it develops from here, and what adaptations people have in mind.

I remember, the Age of Discovery scenario for Civ 3 had an interesting resource model that I actually kind of liked.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I don't mind resource 'management', just not MICROmanagement. The AoD system, in a similar vein to the Hollywood, Broadway and Rock n' Roll Wonders, are all examples of the former, where you can generate Secondary Resource A from Building A-with or without Primary Resource A, B or C.
As I said above, though, what will really make this work is if having 1 source of Secondary Resource A (or any resource for that matter) will only get you so far, and where you will need more of that resource to achieve greater 'efficiency'-whether by trade or conquest!

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

WB Aussie

A lot will come down to how this is used. One building is a neat proof of concept. The value of this system will depend on what ideas for buildings come up, without tying the player up in excessive resource requirements.

(Resource requirements tend to reward big empires, and punish smaller nations. "Bigger is Always Better". Civ 4 did a good job of getting away from that. One of the most important changes: no more Saltpeter required for Guns.)

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Which is exactly why a 'Resource Efficiency' system would work so well in curbing the Bigger=Better even more (regardless of the no. of resources).

For instance, as I said above, Option 1 might be-if you have access to 4 cows but have 6 cities, then your city maintainance costs increase by 6/4 or x1.5. For a strategic resource like Copper, if you had 3 sources of it, but 4 cities and 6 Axemen (for example), then your city maintainance would increase by x1.33, whilst your unit maintainance costs for these units would DOUBLE!!! This would force larger empires to seek out new supplies of a resource-even if they already have it.

Option 2 might work much like Option 1, but directly multiply the Inflation factor already present in the Finance screen.

Option 3 would be more 'realistic', but more complex. If you had 4 cows and 6 cities, for example, then the available food for all connected cities might drop by x%. If you had 8 cities and only 4 sources of copper, then your # of hammers per turn-in all connected cities-might also drop (quite substantially in this instance). In the latter case, all copper-requiring units in this example might take twice as long to build-due to the copper shortage!!!
Also, a single luxury resource might only be able to provide happiness to 2-3 cities each, with each city after that not gaining any additional benefits.

Anyway, the point is that whichever option is utilized, this model would drive a more dynamic trade and conquest system, as suddenly those 3 fish or 3 iron are no longer quite enough for the empires needs, wheras that tiny, efficient nation has considerable leverage in trade negotiations with its much larger neighbour.
Anyway, TheLopez, I hope my ramblings are giving you some inspiration .

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

What you talk about is something I support in principle, Aussie... but in practice it's much much harder. The risk is that it goes the exact opposite way: that huge empires get to be the resource dealers, while small nations find themselves locked out of key resources entirely.

Execution is key. But then, that was my only point -- I'm excited to see where people take this component

 

[scottland]

I don't think that the distribution of natural resources needs to be changed - I like the way CivIV tends to group resources together meaning one or two civs will control all access to one particular luxury. Small nations will need to be in a very lucky place (like Kuwait) to have a trade advantage no matter what system is implemented.

I'd like some suggestions on how people would like an expanded bonus production system implemented. Taking for granted that some tiles will need to produce >1 of a bonus, would you prefer workers building additional improvements on top, or for the tiles to automatically upgrade over time? Or is there another option?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, as it happens that is the kind of thing I am hoping for: a combination of a distribution system which will allow for even quite small nations to 'monopolise' certain resources, combined with my 'resource efficiency' model AND TheLopez' upcoming 'Secondary' resource system.
If properly combined-and especially if also linked to a better culture and economic system (which we are getting bit by bit, BTW, courtesy of such great talents as TheLopez ), then we might be able to see a much more dynamic system of resource acquisition which doesn't simply stop when you have just ONE!!!

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Rabbit, White]

Maybe I'm just restating Aussie's point but my take on this is as follows.

A big empire would always have a greater chance to monopolize on anything, especially resources. They have the biggest land, therefore they control the most resources, and so on and so on. You can't fight that. The problem as I see it in the current system (mind you I don't think it's a big one, but it could be improved upon) is that the resources system is very simplified, meaning there aren't that many of them around anyway, and it's easy for a large empire to pretty much monopolize on everything all the time.

Now, this new system, on the most basic level will simply increase the number of resources. So there will be more chance for a smaller civ to own some of them. Now, the real advantage with system however is that the resource are no longer exclusive in terms of what is needed for what. So completely controlling a resources doesn't automatically mean that you have monopoly on units that depend on it. Instead, the big empire might be lacking an extra resource that in combination with the other one would actually make possible much superior units, and that resource is controlled by a smaller civ. So then the big empire of course needs to share if it wants the better units.

What's more, that resource might be only half the requirement for units, in which case the only way to get them is to, once again, share. So this system will also promote trade, which in the future might actually contribute to the relations score.

Naturally the strength of this system will depend on a well thought out and balanced implementation. But if anyone is most qualified to test and decide what's balanced and what's not, it's the players.

 

[Supa]

It reminds me of Colonization. Next step : Local stock of ressource. 8)

 

[Leatherneck]

Cool! I like th e looks and the idea, can't wait to see the finished mod. But I got too.

 

[scottland]

Supa - already done, just working on sharing them around

EDIT: done now

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Ok, so I'm assuming then that this allows for quantified resources as opposed to 1 resource supply satisfies all needs... (I thought, at first, it was just to allow resources to be manufactured) which I also assume then means this is going to be quite an overhaul... are you planning on releasing this with just the new features and let us romp, or are you going to provide a mod with new resources in it?

Will it include the ability to set the quantities of materials needed to produce buildings, units, wonders as opposed to just that you need the resource?

Also, is this using the SDK? It seems beyond the capabilities of the Python, but I could certainly be wrong...

 

[TheLopez]

Ok, so I'm assuming then that this allows for quantified resources as opposed to 1 resource supply satisfies all needs... (I thought, at first, it was just to allow resources to be manufactured) which I also assume then means this is going to be quite an overhaul... are you planning on releasing this with just the new features and let us romp, or are you going to provide a mod with new resources in it?

Actually, both, I will probably release the mod comp that provides just the barebones functionality and a reference implementation that includes how to use the functionality.

Will it include the ability to set the quantities of materials needed to produce buildings, units, wonders as opposed to just that you need the resource?

Yes, it will. So right now you have to set the type of bonus, the modification will include new tags to specify the amount of the bonus.

Also, is this using the SDK? It seems beyond the capabilities of the Python, but I could certainly be wrong...

Yes, it done through the SDK.