What do you want out of life?

[Narz]

It's weird that "cure" is being put into Hygro's posts particularly. It wasn't in his original one. It was implied in a response, and from there it has taken life. The closest he has come is in negative terms. That if you don't attempt to "get better*" then you will fail to "get better." Getting better is not equivalent to "curing" no matter how often it's real or implied in. This is the creation of rhetorical ghosts into the conversation. Now, one could argue that no medication, no exercise, no health regime changes whatsoever are possible in a manner that lessens the pain of depression, that behavioral activities cannot impact the chemical and hormonal activities of the brain. These arguments would be incorrect.

*the actual words

People get defensive because they've made an identity of their condition and take any advice as an attack on their identity & a suggestion that they lack willpower.

There is a lot of people who actually argue this & a lot of judgement & stigma about mental illness so the defensiveness is understandable, if misguided.

There's a fine line between acknowledging suffering as real and accepting suffering as "who one is". I refuse to accept any temporary mind-state as who I am.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Being told you "have a condition" and it's "incurable" also creates chemical changes in your brain (if you buy in anyway)

I think you'd agree that Parkinson's Disease and epilepsy both have physiological causes—PD from death of cells in the substantia nigra, epilepsy from abnormal electrical activity in the brain. Both of them can be treated with deep-brain stimulation.
There was a recent study showing that deep-brain stimulation can also be effective for refractory depression.

As well, there are cases where PD patients taking dopamine agonists suddenly develop compulsive gambling problems, even when they had never gambled before.

Frankly, I think it's kind of B.S. that we separate mental and physical illnesses.

 

[Gorbles]

People get defensive because they've made an identity of their condition and take any advice as an attack on their identity & a suggestion that they lack willpower.

There is a lot of people who actually argue this & a lot of judgement & stigma about mental illness so the defensiveness is understandable, if misguided.

There's a fine line between acknowledging suffering as real and accepting suffering as "who one is". I refuse to accept any temporary mind-state as who I am.

Y'know, it's kinda amazing you're consistently advocating against readings of Hygro's posts because things aren't explicitly stated (even if the criticism is a) mild and / or b) made in good faith), because you think folks are stating things that aren't there, and then you go ahead and make a buttload of assumptions about "people" posting in the thread - also stating things that aren't there.

 

[civvver]

Yes of course I know that. I know a ton about depression having suffered from it for years & nearly lost my life to it.

What's your point?

Any psychological or physical thing one wants to change in life is going to have a chemical basic.

Being told you "have a condition" and it's "incurable" also creates chemical changes in your brain (if you buy in anyway)

Then why are you against SSRIs? If it's a chemical condition in your brain and not just thoughts why wouldn't you try to adjust your brain chemicals?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

SSRIs have pretty severe side-effects so that's one reason to be against them.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I mean, honest question, have you guys ever had an extremely high work load?

The point is that burnout can happen independent of workload, not that it must. Having a high workload might be the single biggest factor for it being so common today, I don't even disagree on that one, but that doesn't change the fact that students or people with part-time jobs are diagnosed with burnout by clinical psychiatrists. Burnout can occur from any stress-related issue if the stress is constant. And yeah, it is kind of insulting when you say "have you guys ever really worked?" Don't think it really called for that.

I agree with almost all of this & yet it has an air of surrender to it.

thanks for your post and yeah, I completely agree with you. I'm trying to fight my portion of defeatism best as I can

Are you weird? Be you.

that's me in two sentences I agree with you on the overthinking part, I can manage with that. though I'm not sure everyone can just "tune it out" though, it's often involuntary.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Those two are diametrical opposites.

yes it seems that way at first glance, and it wouldn't have been true for any period in time other than now. today we are interacting with more human representations that are on magazines, ads, tv, and of course social media than we are with actual human beings. even by sheer number, especially if you consider endless feeds like fb and ig. we're constantly surrounded by optimized human beings, airbrushed with favorable lighting. naturally, we mentally compare us to them, and many people start to feel deficient or envious. it's one big reason why social media addiction leads to depression and other mental illnesses. you are not longer comparing yourself to the actual people around you, you're comparing yourself to (digital) representations of them with impossible standards. which raises the question: at what point do the representations on tv, in hollywood, on instagram and so forth constitute our main idea of what a human is? those images and videos are obviously influencing it, that much I think is even empirically verifyable. and that is the point I'm driving at. our idea of what humans are really like has changed. so follows, the humans we compare ourselves to, have changed as well. we're competing with beautiful, successful, young, healthy people with jobs that they love and a working family.

in that regard I also agree with what @Terxpahseyton said about "ego ideal" and how important it is in todays world, or rather, how opressive it is. not just for people that are "sick", but for everyone, especially those growing up now.. our vision of our ego-ideal, or more concretely our future self is being massively manipulated by people with a versed interest in selling us something. not just products. ironically enough it was a relative of Freud's who really drove the idea of selling "a lifestyle, rather than a product" in American advertising. that idea of course spread like wildfire, and can be seen and felt in almost any ad today. this development reached its last conclusion with the age of the internet, where we've finally gone full circle and are now selling ourselves: our habits, interests, even our daily routine via algorhithms, our faces and voices via YouTube, our personal information and private life on social media. we make ourselves into brands. we have become the product.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The point is that burnout can happen independent of workload, not that it must.

This point was not clear from your previous posts. You seemed to be disregarding burnout caused by forced overwork as a legitimate thing that happens.

 

[Narz]

Y'know, it's kinda amazing you're consistently advocating against readings of Hygro's posts.

What?

Then why are you against SSRIs? If it's a chemical condition in your brain and not just thoughts why wouldn't you try to adjust your brain chemicals?

Because SSRIs are unsafe

 

[MaryKB]

Because SSRIs are unsafe

Aren't you that guy who took someone else's antibiotics without your doctor's advice when you had a cold?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I hate bringing up past sentiments in arguments but I can't take your claims of practical reality in the therapeutic world seriously when you've made a thread on here about how women are linear puzzles to be mastered and manipulated.

OK I decided to give a quick response to that: I was being needlessly provocative and hyperbolic in the way I presented it, but everything else is just your misguided and uninformed interpretation. Women are animals. Just like men. But in specific ways different to the male ways. On top of that is culture and gender roles and individual preferences and characters etcetera. But the animal is in there. Always. Yes, seeing that animal for what it is can be used for great effect to get lays, if you get to a stage where you intuitively feel it, but what you do with that insight is up to. In the end, I stand by every word, and every experience I make sooner or later reaffirms it. Every. Time. (and believe me part of me still wants to be wrong, and think in more ideal and romantic terms) Oh BTW I by now also can tell you that unmanly or too harmless men seem to be a common issue in modern marriages, according to psychiatrists. Of course no woman would ever say that in public. Because yes, that animal is far removed from anything political correct. And to this day I derive great amusement from the reaction on this site.

I know this isn't the thread for that but I leave this little nugget to consider:
The genetic difference between human and ape is just as big as between human males and females. Comes from some gene expert from some American Elite University. I believe it was Havard. So. Gender matters, a lot.
Further: Many gender stereotypes turn out to often be kinda true, to some extend. But the political correct view is that those are mere evil oppressive cultural roles or sth. For instance are men more substance-orientated and women more personal-orientated. However, one of course needs to not forget that even though men are on average a lot taller than women, it won't be hard to find two where this is not so.

Alright, sorry for sidetracking

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Because SSRIs are unsafe

What are you referring to? Suicidal ideation (which is mostly just in the early stages of treatment)? Serotonin syndrome? If you get prescribed an SSRI, it (hopefully) means that the doctor weighed the risks and benefits.

Are you anti-psychiatry?

 

[Narz]

What are you referring to?

First and foremost my personal experience but generally speaking these drugs have tons of side effects, are difficult to quit & yes they can lead to violence towards oneself & others (a # of school shooters, perhaps even most of them, including Eric Harris of Columbine infamy was on SSRIs). And, while I could never imagine what it must be like to be so far gone as to take such actions, I did feel a degree of coldness/repitilianess I might even say, while on Prozac in particular. Usually in school if kids messed w me I'd ignore it & go about my business. While on Prozac I did not tolerate it and allowed myself to be goaded into a fight that ended up w me ultimately dropping out of school (I was suspended for a fight in which I didn't even throw a punch, leading me to miss a track meet which was pretty much my only pleasure in school at that time & I was so fed up I simply quit school), I had less fear of consequence, I remember riding my bicycle crazy in the streets & then falling, skidding up the whole side of my torso & having an odd lack of concern over it. It's like my natural empathy/sensitivity, which made me susceptible to depression in the first place (along w ritalin from age 7 til 12) got turned down which indeed did "help" me become less depressed but at the price of part of my soul (I'm atheist but not sure how else to phrase it)

If you get prescribed an SSRI, it (hopefully) means that the doctor weighed the risks and benefits.

It's just a crap-shoot, even today there is very little understanding of how these drugs work & no way to predict how a particular person's brain will react to them. One of my psychiatrists admitted as much. I was put on Effexor as a kid and my blood pressure shot thru the roof & I had severe anxiety, an ex of mine as an adult was on Effexor and it had dramaticly different effects on her (and it was hell for her withdrawing from it even though she was on a very low dose, you can read threads 1000s of posts long about people's experiences withdrawing from this drug, technically an SNRI but with similar problems & side-effects).

Are you anti-psychiatry?

For myself, yes. I was failed by it as was my best friend in college who was suffering severe depression & alcohol addiction & was "treated" by his psychiatrist by being doped up on a cocktail of anti-anxiety & anti-psychotic pills (he was not psychotic but prescribing anti-psychotics to manage anxiety & even for sleep is common practice, or at least was in the 90's/early 00's). These drugs didn't help him but did numb him out/sap his energy to the point where he gained about 80lb (alot of weight on a 5'6" frame). He eventually committed suicide (via alcohol poisoning combined w his psych meds), he was only 24 or 25.

I wish I could've been a better friend & of more support to him & for years afterward I'd have dreams he was still alive after all & I had one last chance to reach him.

In general, the psychiatric industry is corrupt, individual doctors may care & do their best to help, but the system they are part of is driven by $ not helping people. Anti-depressants certainly help some people. They didn't help me & it took me over a decade to get off all those drugs completely.

Telling someone they have a "chemical imbalance" and selling them drugs is... well, not science. "Self-medication" is a derogatory expression in psychiatry but I've found it much more helpful than entrusting my precious brain to the pharmaceutical industry who's motivation is profit. I'm not glorifying this, it sucks, having to try to heal myself by trial & error, reading all manner of psychology/self-development books (some great, many garbage) but I don't miss the stress all through childhood of wondering whether what I was feeling was really "my" feelings or some chemical generated anxiety/mania/insomnia/etc (on top of everything else I was going through at that time).

Mental illness and depression in particular has been rising steadily in the last half dozen decades or so, right along with the rise in anti-depressant use. The problem has gotten so severe that the average life-span of a US citizen has actually gone down over the last few years IIRC, and it's not due to lack of enough prescribed pills, quite the opposite.

 

[bernie14]

.....Avoid amphetamines, SSRI's and alcohol if at all possible. Very toxic **** for your brain.

Avoid if possible yes, very toxic, depends on a lot of stuff

Well.. to my mind that kind of approach is a two-edged sword. The principle is sound. Purpose breeds effort. And consistent effort needs over-arching and hence consistent purpose. Which in the end is who you want to be and what life you want. I would say this video is a good example of a man who uses his ego-ideal to improve himself and enrich his life.

But what rings my alarm bells in that video is that aspiration of being extraordinary, to the point where it risks becoming self-serving (he himself said that it also kinda was a waste of time to read every assignment) As said, it seems to work for that guy, so great, and his mental approach certainly can be utilitized.

However, perfectionism and a need or want to be extraordinary are also strongly related to a myriad of mental health issues. To improve yourself and work on yourself is one thing. To try to compensate mental health issues with aspirations of grandeur however, while tempting, seems also very dangerous to me.
Sometimes it just needs to be okay to be a bit weak and ordinary.

My first thought was that the need to be extraordinarily and wanting to be so, seem diametrically opposed

Yes of course I know that. I know a ton about depression having suffered from it for years & nearly lost my life to it.

What's your point?

Any psychological or physical thing one wants to change in life is going to have a chemical basic.

Being told you "have a condition" and it's "incurable" also creates chemical changes in your brain (if you buy in anyway)

Boo!!!!! i recently linked to this theory in another thread, when it was alleged that schizophrenics were born "a certain way". Point being, theoretically, with the "right" balance of nature/nurture, anyone can be "normal"

 

[Narz]

We live in a society where anything that prevents you for sitting still/shutting up like a good little worker bee gets you a diagnosis.

Just because society shuns you or can't find a way to integrate you into itself doesn't mean you're not "normal".

 

[Ajidica]

We live in a society where anything that prevents you for sitting still/shutting up like a good little worker bee gets you a diagnosis.

All I know is I'm hella glad I got my diagnosis and medication level figured out before I got into high school. I doubt I would be where I am today -living independently, good enough social life, well paying job- if it wasn't for my diagnosis and meds. Some people are given medication that doesn't work right, or has bad side effects, but to dismiss the whole thing as some sort of attempt to enforce conformity by an out of touch and vaguely malevolent intelligentsia borders on the offensive.

 

[Hygro]

I took Prozac for a year or so. It was great. It was one of the things I used in the past 3-4 years to help dig me out of my hole, to have the brain-fortitude to relearn prosocial behaviors. My dose was pretty low.

Right now I take 5mg of Ritalin a day and some coffee. Ritalin because it’s much easier to get here than dextroamphetamine which does me better... maybe.

Or maybe you try, and fail to get better because it's a permanent disability.

Ok, but that’s definitely better than surrendering to failure without even knowing in advance you never had a chance. And who knows, depression is a studied topic but not a solved topic.

I can’t promise everyone can get better, I can only promise that if you don’t try your odds are really really bad.

that's me in two sentences I agree with you on the overthinking part, I can manage with that. though I'm not sure everyone can just "tune it out" though, it's often involuntary.

Something I learned in my 30s was to not give quarter to bad thoughts. I still have them, they can ride for a minute. But I don’t go, “well damn I guess so.” While some people need to learn to stop dismissing thoughts and ideas, I learned to start dismissing bad thoughts so I can keep my mind doing me and others good.

 

[xwyhzol]

I like the general rule-of-thumb(and I don't believe in God), focus on your own heaven, and spend little time on the hell of others - leave that for those that deal with it.

Thus, my want is a good heaven, and how I achieve it - is not sending evil people to hell - but performing as good as I can.

I have no desire for any alternate to natural joys(TV, gaming, vehicles, etc; though I do partake); my senses are set on my vessel in the long run.

I hope I have a better mind - in the next life.

I fear doing things I shouldn't - for my next life.

I guess, I approach wants differently than most; more strategy involved.

 

[Mouthwash]

yes it seems that way at first glance, and it wouldn't have been true for any period in time other than now. today we are interacting with more human representations that are on magazines, ads, tv, and of course social media than we are with actual human beings. even by sheer number, especially if you consider endless feeds like fb and ig. we're constantly surrounded by optimized human beings, airbrushed with favorable lighting. naturally, we mentally compare us to them, and many people start to feel deficient or envious. it's one big reason why social media addiction leads to depression and other mental illnesses. you are not longer comparing yourself to the actual people around you, you're comparing yourself to (digital) representations of them with impossible standards. which raises the question: at what point do the representations on tv, in hollywood, on instagram and so forth constitute our main idea of what a human is? those images and videos are obviously influencing it, that much I think is even empirically verifyable. and that is the point I'm driving at. our idea of what humans are really like has changed. so follows, the humans we compare ourselves to, have changed as well. we're competing with beautiful, successful, young, healthy people with jobs that they love and a working family.

No, it's exactly the opposite. There is no conformity; people are encouraged to seek 'their truth' and be whatever they want. If you're a freak, be your truest self!

(You can see this in fiction, with the race-traitor Drizzt Do'Urden or the sterile Geralt of Rivia fighting the prejudice of the masses.)

All I know is I'm hella glad I got my diagnosis and medication level figured out before I got into high school. I doubt I would be where I am today -living independently, good enough social life, well paying job- if it wasn't for my diagnosis and meds. Some people are given medication that doesn't work right, or has bad side effects, but to dismiss the whole thing as some sort of attempt to enforce conformity by an out of touch and vaguely malevolent intelligentsia borders on the offensive.

I don't mean to be insensitive, but if those drugs didn't exist we would probably be more pressured to create a society which humans can actually function in. Suppressing the problem makes it a permanent one.

It's not a completely modern phenomenon, either:

 

[Gorbles]

This point was not clear from your previous posts. You seemed to be disregarding burnout caused by forced overwork as a legitimate thing that happens.

Yeah, sorry @yung.carl.jung, this was my read of it as well.

What?

You keep going "people are being harsh on Hygro and seeing things that aren't there" (or that you personally don't see, which is a whole other Thing™), and then you go any make up this correlation between a condition and an identity that you have zero proof for.