2020 US Election (Part 3)

[Kyriakos]

It will take some verifiable massive fraud to cancel the result of the election, so I am wondering when will Trump give up.
That said, he still has 2 months - which is a lot of time - so this isn't nearly over.

 

[Verbose]

It will take some verifiable massive fraud to cancel the result of the election, so I am wondering when will Trump give up.
That said, he still has 2 months - which is a lot of time - so this isn't nearly over.

Or it just requires enough Republicans in key positions in state legislatures etc. to share the increasingly popular Republican belief that the Democrats, opposition to their views, are Of The Devil. And then on that basis disregard the popular vote, and submit representative to the Electoral College instructed to vote Trump.

Because if that is true (according to them), then the confrontation is no longer political, but existential. And if it is an existential battle, then being the minority is no longer necessarily important for whether the Republicans should concede or not.

 

[r16]

trump had to go , by logic he is gone , by sentiment people need some examples of what sorts of disasters could happen , except that only increases the appetite of those who will not respect the vote because they will think their opponents are meek and weak ... Only when this hurdle is overcome , those who want more options can bring about change , by still working with the mass and still being distinctive and yet achieving things . Not impossible !

 

[El_Machinae]

If a bunch of Nazis or "alt-reich" turds show up in their Turner Diaries cosplay, I won't get that bothered if someone looking for a fight gets into a fight with them.

I know, neither will I. So, maybe my post was referring to collateral damage, not to people who seem bound to degenerate the situation.

Notice how you had to characterize the concern? Spin it to be about alt-reich cosplayers? There are more people being intimidated into silence, unjustly, by people claiming the 'antifa' label than just the people who bring SCA props to rallies. And if all 'antifa' have to do to trigger instinctive defensiveness by you is to say "but we're antifa!", you're going to ignore collateral damage.

Claiming to be antifa does not guarantee that someone is actually anti-fascist. They just want the label, that's all you know.

 

[Ajidica]

Notice how you had to characterize the concern? Spin it to be about alt-reich cosplayers? There are more people being intimidated into silence, unjustly, by people claiming the 'antifa' label than just the people who bring SCA props to rallies. And if all 'antifa' have to do to trigger instinctive defensiveness by you is to say "but we're antifa!", you're going to ignore collateral damage.

Who are being "intimidated into silence"? Some hand-wringers complaining about people who were mean to them on the internet?

 

[El_Machinae]

Who are being "intimidated into silence"? Some hand-wringers complaining about people who were mean to them on the internet?

Nope, the people that you won't notice, because of your bias. And that's why you denigrate my concern and mischaracterize it.
Dude, you're not coming into this discussion with good faith, all because some person - unknown to you, unvetted by you - claimed to be 'antifa'.

I'll just say again, an person unqualified to be anti-fascist can incorrectly identify a (proto-) fascist and cause damage that is both unjust and unnecessary and then wrap himself in the flag of "I'm antifa!" to get you to ignore it. There's a problem there.

Can you think of a single violent demonstration that went too far? That inappropriately targeted someone? Can you even imagine someone being inappropriately targeted? These things will happen. They might even (in the broad sweep of history) be 'necessary'. But they have to be treated as collateral. If they're swept under the rug, you're going to lose some of the people you're trying to convince (who're not the same people who you're trying to intimidate).

 

[Arwon]

Or it just requires enough Republicans in key positions in state legislatures etc. to share the increasingly popular Republican belief that the Democrats, opposition to their views, are Of The Devil. And then on that basis disregard the popular vote, and submit representative to the Electoral College instructed to vote Trump.

Because if that is true (according to them), then the confrontation is no longer political, but existential. And if it is an existential battle, then being the minority is no longer necessarily important for whether the Republicans should concede or not.

That'll probably get a serious workout some day, but it doesn't appear, now, to be on the cards this election. The key state legislatures etc aren't following Trump.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Trump's crack legal team is on the case:

Trump's legal team seemingly didn't notice its allegation of election fraud in Michigan is based on data from Minnesota
November 20, 2020

JEFF KOWALSKY/AFP via Getty Images
President Trump's legal team has finally revealed what it claims is a definitive example of election fraud in Michigan — based on data from Minnesota.

Since the presidential election more than two weeks ago, Trump and his supporters have launched legal efforts aimed at somehow overturning President-elect Joe Biden's win. Trump lawyers Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, and Jenna Ellis continued that effort in a wild Thursday press conference where they waved around a single affidavit, and claimed they had "hundreds" more, revealing all sorts of election fraud.

Trump's team still hasn't shared many of those affidavits with the public, but has begun filing them in lawsuits across the country. One, from a Texas resident who works in cybersecurity, was filed in Georgia on Wednesday, but claims vote tallying machines in Michigan are highly susceptible to fraud. It goes on to list several "statistical red flags" that purport to show how those machines may have been manipulated, including numbers that imply as many as 350 percent of estimated voters in a range of Michigan towns cast ballots. The problem is, the towns the affidavit lists are all scattered across eastern Minnesota, not Michigan.

The affidavit also claims there have been reports of votes switched from Trump to Biden in "Antium County, Michigan." There's no such county in the state, or in the United States at all. And if the affidavit means to imply there was fraud in Antrim County, Michigan, well, its county clerk has already corrected and testified regarding any mistaken voting tallies there. Kathryn Krawczyk

Only the best people! And IIRC one of the team mentioned that Hugo Chavez was part of the vast conspiracy that rigged the election. I thought he was dead?

 

[Ajidica]

Nope, the people that you won't notice, because of your bias.

Who are being "intimidated"? Everything I've read on on this suggests the only "intimidation" going on are some people saying mean things on the internet with some trolling and flaming; you've been around the internets long enough to know if that constitutes intimidation, than CFC has long been a toxic place full of harassers and intimidators.

Can you think of a single violent demonstration that went too far?

I can think of the tiki-torch march where a Nazi murdered a lady.

That inappropriately targeted someone?

I, for one, have interests besides chronicling every single transgression, real or imagined, by "antifa"; which is why I asked you for examples besides "someone was mean to me on the internet" and you responded by saying I'm blinded by my bias.

If they're swept under the rug, you're going to lose some of the people you're trying to convince (who're not the same people who you're trying to intimidate).

"I would support your opposition to fascism, but you aren't doing it in the way I like so I guess I'm going to sit this one out."

 

[Joij21]

Antifa isn't intelligent guys and neither are the fascists. Let's move on.

 

[Patine]

Antifa isn't intelligent guys and neither are the fascists. Let's move on.

Who are being "intimidated"? Everything I've read on on this suggests the only "intimidation" going on are some people saying mean things on the internet with some trolling and flaming; you've been around the internets long enough to know if that constitutes intimidation, than CFC has long been a toxic place full of harassers and intimidators.



I can think of the tiki-torch march where a Nazi murdered a lady.


I, for one, have interests besides chronicling every single transgression, real or imagined, by "antifa"; which is why I asked you for examples besides "someone was mean to me on the internet" and you responded by saying I'm blinded by my bias.


"I would support your opposition to fascism, but you aren't doing it in the way I like so I guess I'm going to sit this one out."

The Fascists and Nazis barely exist in the world anymore, by proper ideology and definition, and Antifa are just as criminal as any other group of violent, destructive hooligans - including the Brownshirts when Weimar Republic Elections were still occurring prior to 1933 - and should be treated and viewed as such.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Conservative columnist Peggy Noonan today:

A Bogus Dispute Is Doing Real Damage

No hard evidence of widespread fraud, no success in the courts or prospect of it. You can have a theory that a bad thing was done, but only facts will establish it. You need to do more than what Rudy Giuliani did at his news conference Thursday, which was throw out huge, barely comprehensible allegations and call people “crooks.” You need to do more than Sidney Powell, who, at the same news conference, charged that “communist money” is behind an international conspiracy to rig the U.S. election. There was drama, hyperbole, perhaps madness. But the wilder the charges, the more insubstantial the case appeared. More than two weeks after the election, it’s clear where this is going. The winner will be certified and acknowledged; Joe Biden will be inaugurated. But it’s right to worry about the damage being done on the journey.

It’s one thing when supporters of the president say, simply, “Let’s go through the process and see where we are.” It’s not bad to look into how messy the voting system is, not the worst to realize it needs long-term remedial attention. How did we devolve into a nation that no longer has an election night but an election month?

But the sheer nuttiness surrounding the current mess is becoming deeply destructive. Online you see the websites read by millions saying the entire election system is shot through with criminality. The headlines read: It was stolen. We have proof of coordinated vote tampering. The president has many avenues to victory. The Trump campaign sent an email under the name of formerly respectable Republican Newt Gingrich, once speaker of the House, saying “The Corruption is Unprecedented”: “It’s time for us to get MAD.” We can’t “roll over.” “Please contribute $45 RIGHT NOW to the Official Election Defense Fund.”

This isn’t a game. America isn’t your plaything. Doesn’t Mr. Gingrich realize how dangerous it is to stoke people like this, to rev them up on the idea that holding even the slightest faith in the system is for suckers?

Trump staff and supporters should know at this point that in trying to change the outcome they are doing harm—undercutting respect in and hope for democracy. Republican senators and representatives, in their silence, are allowing the idea to take hold that the whole system is rigged. This lessens faith in institutions and in their party’s reputation. Republicans were once protective of who we are and what we created in this democratic republic long ago.

Now they’re not even protecting themselves; in future years what’s happening now will give their voters an excuse not to take part or show up. What’s the point? It’s all rigged. And they are accepting a new postelection precedent, that national results won’t be accepted until all states are certified and all legal options, even the most bizarre and absurd, exhausted. Wait until this is used against you, in 2024 or

’28. You won’t like it.

I found myself thinking this week of the 1960s and the John Birch Society, which had some power in its day as an anticommunist movement whose core belief was that officials of the U.S. government were con-editorial, spiring with international communism to take down America. They were pretty wild. In time they accused Dwight D. Eisenhower, president of the United States and hero of Normandy, of being a secret communist agent.

Rising conservative leaders, embarrassed by the Birchers, didn’t wish to see their movement tainted. They also didn’t want to alienate voters who sympathized with the Birchers: Every movement has its nuts. Russell Kirk, Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley pushed back, the last calling the head of the society, Robert Welch, “far removed from common sense.” Even Ayn Rand joined in: Thinking the country’s woes were due to a communist conspiracy “is childishly naive and superficial.” Anyway, “they are not for capitalism but merely against communism.”

The John Birch Society faded because all these conservative leaders, and more, sort of congealed and took the larger weight of their movement in other directions. And so modern conservatism was born as pretty much a healthy movement, and not pretty much a sick one. I’ve been thinking about all this because of the question: What would have happened if the John Birch Society had been online, if it had existed in the internet age when accusations, dark warnings and violent talk can rip through a country in a millisecond and anonymous voices can whip things up for profit or pleasure?

It wouldn’t have faded. It would have prospered. We’ve all decried this aspect of the internet for 20 years; our alarm about its ability to enable and encourage extremism is so old, we forget to keep feeling it. But we’ll look back on this time as one in which the least responsible among us shook big foundations.

Responsible Republican leaders ought to congeal and address the fact that what rough faith and trust we have in the system is being damaged. Which means our ability to proceed as a healthy democracy is being damaged.

There is no realistic route to victory for the president, only to confusion and chaos and undermining. He is not going to find the votes in recounts to win the election. Dominion, the voting-machine company under attack, has not been credibly charged with doing anything wrong. As the Journal said this week in an “Strong claims need strong proof, not rumors and innuendo on Twitter.”

The irony is that this election will be remembered for the president’s attempts to sow chaos, not for what it actually appears to have been, which is a triumph for America. Conspiracy theories are damaging the country today and will hurt Republicans tomorrow.

In the middle of a pandemic, with new rules, there was historically high turnout. Under stress the system worked. Voters were committed, trusting, and stood in line for hours. There was no violence at the polls, no serious charges of voter suppression. In a time of legitimate hacking fears, there were no reports of foreign interference. Our defenses held. On top of all that, the outcome was moderate: for all the strife and stress of recent years, the split decision amounted to a reassertion of centrism.

You’d think the president would take his winnings and go home, because he had them. He outperformed polls and exceeded his 2016 vote total by more than 10 million. For one brief shining moment, on Nov. 3, he’d finally expanded his base to almost 50% of the electorate. He found new sources of support.

Imagine if he’d acted even remotely normal in his first term, if he’d had the intellectual, emotional and spiritual resources to moderate himself, to act respectably. Heck, imagine if he’d worn a mask. He might have won.

He is set on going out like a villain. He and his people would find this Jacksonian—he’s refusing to bow to entrenched establishments! He would think this is what his base wants—the old battler refusing to accept the illicit judgments of a decadent elite. If he were clever and disciplined, he’d do it differently. He’d accept the election’s outcome, if not graciously at least with finality, go home to Mar-a-Lago, play golf, and have fun torturing his party by plotting his return. “I’ll be back.”

Instead he leaves behind real and politically pointless ruin.

By Peggy Noonan

 

[Ajidica]

The Fascists and Nazis barely exist in the world anymore,

If you are waving a flag with the hakenkreuz, SS, or Black Sun runes, I'm going to call you a Nazi.

 

[Verbose]

That'll probably get a serious workout some day, but it doesn't appear, now, to be on the cards this election. The key state legislatures etc aren't following Trump.

Yes... Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!

 

[aelf]

If you are waving a flag with the hakenkreuz, SS, or Black Sun runes, I'm going to call you a Nazi.

He's gonna come out with some no true Scotsman excuse next.

 

[Patine]

If you are waving a flag with the hakenkreuz, SS, or Black Sun runes, I'm going to call you a Nazi.

Nazism is a VERY specific and narrowly, even razor-edged, defined ideology, and doesn't work outside German-speaking lands in the wake of a perceived sense of national humiliation of Germans requiring redress to function as an ideology, properly. Emulating previous movements' and ideologies symbols' for various purposes is as old as the practice of using symbols for ideologies itself, and does not necessarily make one a member or follower of said ideology, strictly speaking. And, by your logic, anyone that waves an Antifa flag can automatically be considered a violent and destructive criminal, because it is a known tendency of the movement, if not universal, and, even to push further, a member of the civil-right-abusing, extra-judicial, secret police-style groups who used torture, stripping of assets and citizenship, and defamation, slander, and character assassination, as well as arbitrary arrest, execution, sentence to hard labour camps, and forced disappearance of "alleged," Fascists (with very little burden of proof required) that were the Antifa of the Eastern European nations that became members of Warsaw Pact, in the aftermath of WW2 under Stalin's instigation. You're logic is so horribly flawed most of the time, it's usually mostly semantics and polemics instead of anything rational.

 

[Ajidica]

Nazism is a VERY specific and narrowly, even razor-edged, defined ideology, and doesn't work outside German-speaking lands in the wake of a perceived sense of national humiliation of Germans requiring redress to function as an ideology, properly. Emulating previous movements' and ideologies symbols' for various purposes is as old as using symbols for ideologies itself, and does not necessarily make one a member or follower of said ideology, strictly speaking. And, by your logic, anyone that waves an Antifa flag can automatically be considered a violent and destructive criminal, because it is a known tendency of the movement, if not universal, and, even to push further, a member of the civil-right-abusing, extra-judicial, secret police-style groups who used torture, stripping of assets and citizenship, and defamation, slander, and character assassination, as well as arbitrary arrest, execution, sentence to hard labour camps, and forced disappearance of "alleged," Fascists (with very little burden of proof required) that were the Antifa of the Eastern European nations that became members of Warsaw Pact, in the aftermath of WW2 under Stalin's instigation. You're logic is so horribly flawed most of the time, it's usually mostly semantics and polemics instead of anything rational.

So, waving a hakenkreuz, SS rune, or Black Sun rune doesn't make someone a Nazi?
Why else would someone wave a hakenkreuz?

 

[aelf]

Called it.

 

[Patine]

So, waving a hakenkreuz, SS rune, or Black Sun rune doesn't make someone a Nazi?
Why else would someone wave a hakenkreuz?

A protest usage, or a show of intimidation or fear tactics, or invoking extremism for other related reasons. Not everyone at a BLM or other protest related to Social Progressive issues who uses a sick-and-hammer, or red or yellow star, is actually a Communist, or a black fist is truly a Black Panther, or an Anarchy "stylized-A," is truly an Anarchist - but it's amazing how many of those symbols you see in the footage.

 

[Akka]

It's pretty telling that the people who claims the most to be anti-fascists are basically saying "let's allow anyone to beat and silence anyone else as long he claims that the guy beaten was a fascist"
I'm afraid I can't spell out the problem to anyone who has a brain broken enough to not see it to begin with.
But I'm totally unsurprised to see who supports it and who doesn't.