2020 US Election (Part 3)

[Berzerker]

It's not bipartisan, it's universal. No one was any kind of beacon of truth and light, especially at first. But there's a big difference between saying "blame is bipartisan" and "in the end, Trump's failures have been massively more negatively impactful than that of any other public figure".

@Birdjaguar said Trump is to blame for it all, I said the blame is bipartisan, and now you're saying the blame is universal. No, 2 parties run the system. Bipartisan. If you want to assign more blame to Trump than anyone else, fine. But the lie was bipartisan.

Both parties downplayed the bug and masks and Pelosi wasn't worried about hospitals and PPEs when she was inviting people to Chinatown - that was about promoting business interests. But when Trump does that its immoral.

Democrats and Republicans both prefer censorship of some kinds of speech. Everyone supports "free speech", as long as they get to define "speech". What's your definition?

And that proves the Democrats are not the party of censorship? I just watched them spend 4 years smearing people as traitors and then they demanded social media platforms silence political opponents - from both the left and right. And of course their riots are just another way of shutting down speech they dont like.

I would say the Green Party USA is the notable U.S. political party that really lacks any blame or culpability at all, really. The Libertarian and Constitution Parties supported the "lack of enforceability of mandatory COVID-19 restrictions because of absolute views of the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights," the Peace and Justice Party and the Party of Socialism and Liberation were BIG supporters of BLM rallies, where the disease was spread just as much as at big Trump rallies, and the utter apathy on the matter of the Reform/Delta hybrid ticket of De la Fuante is appalling.

These other groups dont run the country, they are not responsible for the lie Fauci et all told.

So heres where I will adamantly disagree. Trump and the Republican party at the national level hold all the blame for this disaster of a response to COVID. Democrats controlled one chamber of Congress, one which passed numerous relief bills which never made it to the floor of the Senate. President Trump held mass rallies which have been proven to increase the spread of the disease, ala his staff and protective details. Additionally, the House can't impose a national response plan, the house can't mobilize the US military, nor the Guard from the many states, legally speaking Democrats have held no authority to respond beyond the relief bills that as I have stated were dead on arrival to the Senate. President Trump holds all the levers of executive authority and has throughout this pandemic, the federal government's failure to respond rests solely on his shoulders.

As for Democrats any at the state level I can say might have mismanaged things for their state however without an over arching federal plan I can hardly say they did wrong intentionally. Additionally, without said federal response it is nearly impossible to contain any sort of virus. There is a reason that the federal government has plans in place to respond to deadly contagions, President Trump decided to throw those plans out the window.

What is the military supposed to do about covid? I remember Trump sent a hospital ship to NYC but it wasn't used much and he rushed ventilator production along with other resources, stuff like that were within his power. Fauci admitted they told Trump, Democrats and media to downplay the situation and they did.

Of course congressional Democrats share in the blame, they spread the lie too. Trump announced travel restrictions from China and within hours Biden was declaring this was not a time for his xenophobic fear mongering. So Biden wouldn't have restricted travel and he criticizes Trump?

Trump has told thousands upon thousands of lies in his 4 years and he keeps telling them now. The liar in chief deserves no passes. His first lie as president was when he agreed to his oath of office.

Russiagate was thousands upon thousands of lies, some told to a fisa court to spy on Trump. And Biden voters are complaining about liars? He lied us into a war damnit!

 

[Patine]

I'm beginning to realize you have no comprehension when it comes to American democracy. The President is an elected office which is empowered by the Constitution and the various subsequent laws that have been passed. The US is not as you called it an "elective dictatorship". My point in the previous post was that epidemic response was vested in the Federal Executive, thus blaming democrats for President Trump's failures is insanity.

You seem to have this overwhelming hatred of American Democracy. Though we have our many faults we are the best and truest form of representative government. The issues you keep stating about having a duopoly system, which you believe is somehow corrupt on a mass scale simply isn't true. The system is working as designed, the founders envisioned partisanship, they envisioned parties, they envisioned a system which by design should have stopped President Trump from being elected in the first place. There is an extreme danger with populist movement, (see Hitler, Russia's conversion to Communist, etc), Slow incremental change is how one needs to govern, extremes that go too far either way result in mass protests, violence, etc. Your insistence on a multi-party system would increase the likelihood of another President Trump.

I was being facetious about, "elective democracy," based on your over-emphasis of Trump's personal responsibility over everyone else. The same as my, "King as and the Land," are one thinking of @Birdjaguar and others who said that EVERY SINGLE death by COVID-19 in the U.S. was Trump's personal responsibility and blame, which is an unrealistic charge, and is Medieval thinking of the view of personal responsibility over EVERYTHING in a nation by the head-of-state. The fact is, Federal appointed officials (even if nominated by Trump - they were operating semi-autonomously) have to responsibility for their actions like any employee does, and cannot blame their employer for all of their mistakes, Congress did bicker on partisan grounds over certain proposed packages to aid the issue - partisan one-upmanship at times like these makes both party leaderships culpable - and certain State Governments, including some with Democratic-headed Governments, like New York, dropped the ball, too, and the U.S. has a VERY powerfully-entrenched Federal system of guaranteed division of powers between the national and regional (or State) governments, as you well know. This is why I call blaming Trump for the whole catastrophe and every single death, "Medieval thinking," because it's just completely ludicrously unrealistic - the U.S., or any modern nation, is far too complex for that to be remotely credible. But, it seems you can't see anything in my posts beyond a perceived and reactionary view of "overwhelming hatred," of the American system, and seem incapable (or unwilling) to differentiate between your indictment of "overwhelming hatred," and the actual, frank criticism and statements of where I believe serious reform and betterment are needed for the modern day and to improve accountability and a sense of true justice and integrity - advice I do not shy away from giving about political system, including my own in Canada. But just declaring it "hatred," from the start allows a psychological ease in dismissing any possible validity and not thinking about it too much - that is a trope of reaction endemic to the very human engram and one of the toolkit of classic reactions to any greatly unpleasant topic.

 

[Patine]

Is that so ?
What I understand the founding fathers took a good look at the structure of the Dutch Republic, the only existing Republic at that time of some size and succes, and also protestant.
The Dutch Republic being a confederation with well established institutes and having no President, but a secretary-general as a kind of PM. There was a high nobility Stadholder for close to ornamental functions, as head of diplomacy-foreign affairs and commander in chief of the army when at war. But no hard power in the domestic politics. No legislative power and no treasury power.
A Confederation with a by the founding fathers vaguely understood opaque role for the "Head of State" the Stadholder. They did not really understand that the Secretary General was the bargaining deal maker between the factions and provinces of the United Provinces
The Founding Father preferred a much more clear Leader, much more like the traditional French and British Kings.

I thought the Grand Pensioner was a separate role from the Stadtholder who had tonnes of domestic financial clout in the Dutch Republic. ALMOST like a head-of-government to the Stadtholder's head-of-state (in the way that the British PM originally represented Parliament, whose power came the power of the purse, and co-terminously held (and still holds) the office of First Lord of the Treasury).

 

[Moriarte]

The same as my, "King as and the Land," are one thinking of @Birdjaguar and others who said that EVERY SINGLE death by COVID-19 in the U.S. was Trump's personal responsibility and blame, which is an unrealistic charge, and is Medieval thinking of the view of personal responsibility over EVERYTHING in a nation by the head-of-state. The fact is, Federal appointed officials (even if nominated by Trump - they were operating semi-autonomously) have to responsibility for their actions like any employee does, and cannot blame their employer for all of their mistakes, Congress did bicker on partisan grounds over certain proposed packages to aid the issue - partisan one-upmanship at times like these makes both party leaderships culpable - and certain State Governments, including some with Democratic-headed Governments, like New York, dropped the ball, too, and the U.S. has a VERY powerfully-entrenched Federal system of guaranteed division of powers between the national and regional (or State) governments, as you well know. This is why I call blaming Trump for the whole catastrophe and every single death, "Medieval thinking," because it's just completely ludicrously unrealistic - the U.S., or any modern nation, is far too complex for that to be remotely credible.

That’s not a bad argument, considering US helmsman traditionally steers a very small and slow wheel. But the glue just doesn’t hold when we look closer at D Trump. At first he was actively denying, ridiculing the seriousness. Personally responsible for gathering rallies, creating hot pockets of disease. Instead of calming everyone the fudge down, spilling kerosine on twitter, so people on the streets gathered and, again, clashed. So, more disease, faster spread rates. All to satisfy lust for second term in the office. So, idk, man, it may be medieval thinking, but it’s also a fact that he contributed a ton of **** towards making the problem worse. Probably more than any single person in the US.

 

[Hrothbern]

I thought the Grand Pensioner was a separate role from the Stadtholder who had tonnes of domestic financial clout in the Dutch Republic. ALMOST like a head-of-government to the Stadtholder's head-of-state (in the way that the British PM originally represented Parliament, whose power came the power of the purse, and co-terminously held (and still holds) the office of First Lord of the Treasury).

Separate yes.
The Raadspensionaris (literally Councilpensioner), the Grand Pensioner, had a PM like role. He was officially The First Civil Servant, The Country Lawyer, and in practical terms the boss. But we were at that time already very much a consensus bargaining system..=> Primus inter Pares like it had developed in town governance by the guilds.
The Stadholder is a Governor like function in the HRE. When we impeached the King (the Spanish branch of the Habsburgians) we kept the Stadholder function as interface person to other countries, be it as diplomat or general for war.
We had during the two centuries Dutch Republic even two periods without Stadholders: the first one 20 years, the second one more than forty years. On top you were not Stadholder of the United Provinces but of Provinces and not necessarily all Provinces.
The conflicts between the Raadspensionaris and the Orangist Stadholders were part of a deep divide between town guilds merchants on the one side and part of the nobility, strict religious church councils and mostly rural on the other side.
Prince Maurice tried to squash the power of the Raadspensionaris and town Burghers clout in the religious battle between the predestination followers, the precise, of Prince Maurice and the burgers, the moderates. He got the Raadspensionaris Oldenbarneveldt at that time trialled and beheaded but that was also the end of the power of Prince Maurice, he got vomitted out because of the backfiring effects. Half a century later Orangist mobs killed de brothers De Wit, one of them Raadspensionaris, and likely the order was given by Stadholder William of Orange who later became King in England. That was a "good riddance" for the Republic.

Here translated Dutch Wiki:

Council pensionary (also written as council pensionary - no official spelling allowed) was the title of the first civil servant and legal adviser to the states of both the provinces of Holland and the provinces of Zeeland.

The Grand Pensionary, named State Attorney until 1617, was appointed by the Knighthood for five years. He led the deputation of the States of Holland to the States General. He also acted as agent for the knights between two meetings. He opened the Parliament post, compiled the agenda and prepared the meeting. This was arranged in the days of the Burgundian dukes, and initially remained so after the revolt of the Netherlands against the Landsheer.

After that, the function developed rapidly. The state attorney went on to prepare the decisions and in essence often acted as the highest administrator of the entire Republic of the Seven United Netherlands. Ultimately, however, the fortunes of Holland (and as a derivative: the Republic) were decided by the city governments (midships), from Amsterdam to Enkhuizen. After the death of Johan van Oldenbarnevelt, the title was changed from State Attorney to Council Pensionary.

Dordrecht was the "first city of Holland" and thus had the right to hold the office of grand pensionary. If there was no majority for the Dordrecht candidate, or if Dordrecht declined its own candidacy, another was elected.

The Grand Pensionary is often compared to the Stadtholder. The struggles between Johan van Oldenbarnevelt and Maurits and those between Johan de Witt and Willem III are known. After Johan de Witt, Gaspar Fagel, Anthonie Heinsius, Isaäc van Hoornbeek, Simon van Slingelandt and Anthonie van der Heim, among others, were grand pensionaries.

 

[Arwon]

If the founders of the US didn't want the president having executive powers they could have made it so the president didn't have executive powers

 

[Patine]

If the founders of the US didn't want the president having executive powers they could have made it so the president didn't have executive powers

Such an elegant, but simplistic solution! Incredible insight! If only politics worked that way (or ever did), eh?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Trump said he would leave if Biden won the electoral college, then immediately backtracked and said Biden could not win the electoral college legitimately.

Progress?

 

[Kyriakos]

Trump said he would leave if Biden won the electoral college, then immediately backtracked and said Biden could not win the electoral college legitimately.

Progress?

Does this mean he will leave if Biden wins the electoral college in a way deemed by Trump as illegitimate?

I think it is just posturing, tbh. And it has gotten tiresome.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yeah 100% it's posturing. It is both tiring and troublesome because he is eroding faith in our entire civil society to stroke his bruised ego.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned and Trump golfs and rage tweets as the virus is on track to kill more of us than died in WWII. He will rank near the very bottom of all presidents.

 

[Colonel]

I was being facetious about, "elective democracy," based on your over-emphasis of Trump's personal responsibility over everyone else. The same as my, "King as and the Land," are one thinking of @Birdjaguar and others who said that EVERY SINGLE death by COVID-19 in the U.S. was Trump's personal responsibility and blame, which is an unrealistic charge, and is Medieval thinking of the view of personal responsibility over EVERYTHING in a nation by the head-of-state. The fact is, Federal appointed officials (even if nominated by Trump - they were operating semi-autonomously) have to responsibility for their actions like any employee does, and cannot blame their employer for all of their mistakes, Congress did bicker on partisan grounds over certain proposed packages to aid the issue - partisan one-upmanship at times like these makes both party leaderships culpable - and certain State Governments, including some with Democratic-headed Governments, like New York, dropped the ball, too, and the U.S. has a VERY powerfully-entrenched Federal system of guaranteed division of powers between the national and regional (or State) governments, as you well know. This is why I call blaming Trump for the whole catastrophe and every single death, "Medieval thinking," because it's just completely ludicrously unrealistic - the U.S., or any modern nation, is far too complex for that to be remotely credible. But, it seems you can't see anything in my posts beyond a perceived and reactionary view of "overwhelming hatred," of the American system, and seem incapable (or unwilling) to differentiate between your indictment of "overwhelming hatred," and the actual, frank criticism and statements of where I believe serious reform and betterment are needed for the modern day and to improve accountability and a sense of true justice and integrity - advice I do not shy away from giving about political system, including my own in Canada. But just declaring it "hatred," from the start allows a psychological ease in dismissing any possible validity and not thinking about it too much - that is a trope of reaction endemic to the very human engram and one of the toolkit of classic reactions to any greatly unpleasant topic.

I don't think you understand how the US Federal Government works. There are separate sub-divisions sure however, a majority of those lower down the ladder are unable to go with a response counter to the White House. In fact a good majority of the executive branch would go to jail if they tried to institute something of that nature without Presidential or Secretary approval. Thus again this catastrophe is the President's fault.

To the reform aspect, the system is functioning as designed to minimize a populist surge, the current President being an exception not the norm.

@Birdjaguar said Trump is to blame for it all, I said the blame is bipartisan, and now you're saying the blame is universal. No, 2 parties run the system. Bipartisan. If you want to assign more blame to Trump than anyone else, fine. But the lie was bipartisan.

Both parties downplayed the bug and masks and Pelosi wasn't worried about hospitals and PPEs when she was inviting people to Chinatown - that was about promoting business interests. But when Trump does that its immoral.



And that proves the Democrats are not the party of censorship? I just watched them spend 4 years smearing people as traitors and then they demanded social media platforms silence political opponents - from both the left and right. And of course their riots are just another way of shutting down speech they dont like.

You are focused on the beginning of this pandemic still? I would simply state at the beginning both sides were somewhat listening to Public Health officials. Be it to preserve medical supplies or whatever they downplayed it, that was a couple hundred thousand deaths ago and 9 months ago. What has occurred in the intervening months? A clossal failure by the current President, 260K+ Americans gone on his hands.

What is the military supposed to do about covid? I remember Trump sent a hospital ship to NYC but it wasn't used much and he rushed ventilator production along with other resources, stuff like that were within his power. Fauci admitted they told Trump, Democrats and media to downplay the situation and they did.

Instead of using military construction money on a useless wall we could have used it to build theater hospitals in every major city. Instead of the President claiming we are all safe, and covid will magically go away when it gets warmer, we could have activated medical personnel to augment civilian hospitals and our theater hospitals. Those hospitals that are maxed out across the country, most likely need those hospital ships, need those theater hospitals. It wouldn't hurt to have a national plan, send the covid patients to the mil hospitals first to avoid straining the civilian system.

Of course congressional Democrats share in the blame, they spread the lie too. Trump announced travel restrictions from China and within hours Biden was declaring this was not a time for his xenophobic fear mongering. So Biden wouldn't have restricted travel and he criticizes Trump?



Russiagate was thousands upon thousands of lies, some told to a fisa court to spy on Trump. And Biden voters are complaining about liars? He lied us into a war damnit!

Just the word "Russiagate" is obnoxious, have we gotten our dose of FOX, OANN, and Newsmax today? Any case travel restrictions don't work if you are just banning foreign nationals without any sort of screening for US citizens, visa, and green card holders. COVID doesn't care if your American or Chinese it spreads regardless, thus only blocking foreign nationals is xenophobic trash. If the President had come out and said we are banning all travel from China to begin with and then set up an intensive quarantine measure, ie American returns from China, plane lands at specified airfield, two weeks of quarantine and monitor by medical personnel. This would have been an effective mitigation measure. The "China bad, ban China" nonsense is xenophobic trash that one would hear on something like "Newsmax".

As to Russian interference in the 2016 election... IT HAPPENED... IT IS A FACT! Intelligence, national security, etc etc etc have all said that it occurred. What hasn't been proven in court is whether President Trump was complicit in this act, this is only because Mueller can't indite a President due to "Sovereign Immunity". Mueller's report is fairly conclusive that some degree of collusion occurred if you would actually read it.

 

[Patine]

In fact a good majority of the executive branch would go to jail if they tried to institute something of that nature without Presidential or Secretary approval.

I have never once heard about any incident in all of American history of a U.S. President jailing a State Governor over ANYTHING. And there have been some REALLY rough Federal-State relations incidents I've heard and read about. Would you care to enlighten me with an example?

 

[Patine]

Does this mean he will leave if Biden wins the electoral college in a way deemed by Trump as illegitimate?

I think it is just posturing, tbh. And it has gotten tiresome.

Trump said he would leave if Biden won the electoral college, then immediately backtracked and said Biden could not win the electoral college legitimately.

Progress?

The thing is, once the Electoral College meets and renders it's decision, and Inauguration Day rolls around, does Trump's lack of concession and recognition of his own defeat have any legal meaning? Wouldn't he legally become a "trespasser and squatter on sensitive Federal Government property," and he able to be treated, arrested, prosecuted, and removed like one?

 

[Colonel]

I have never once heard about any incident in all of American history of a U.S. President jailing a State Governor over ANYTHING. And there have been some REALLY rough Federal-State relations incidents I've heard and read about. Would you care to enlighten me with an example?

State Governments are not part of the executive branch of the Federal Government. The President has little if any power over them outside of being able to over-rule them via federal emergency orders. I was referring to the executive branch of the US Federal Government. As an example: If the head of the CDC came out and said a federal mask mandate was in effect, they would be removed as that is exceeding his authority, the President would have to order it. The federal system is tied to the notion that the executive is ultimately responsible, and holds ultimate authority as granted by Congress, laws, and the Courts.

 

[Patine]

State Governments are not part of the executive branch of the Federal Government. The President has little if any power over them outside of being able to over-rule them via federal emergency orders. I was referring to the executive branch of the US Federal Government. As an example: If the head of the CDC came out and said a federal mask mandate was in effect, they would be removed as that is exceeding his authority, the President would have to order it. The federal system is tied to the notion that the executive is ultimately responsible, and holds ultimate authority as granted by Congress, laws, and the Courts.

Well, that particular aspect is not so different from the Westminster system in Canada, the UK, and many other Commonwealth countries, where the Prime Minister can arbitrarily relieve a member of the Cabinet of their portfolio, or just as arbitrarily switch them to another one. Though the PM cannot strip a relieved Cabinet Minister of their elected seat in Parliament (as all Cabinet members, and the PM, themselves, must have a seat in Parliament, unlike in the U.S., where the President and Cabinet Secretary are expressly disallowed a seat in Congress co-terminously). The fate of a sacked Cabinet member's seat in Parliament in the Westminster system is for the constituent voters of their riding to decide. That being said, Trump's "revolving door," Cabinet would have been a very difficult environment to work in, by that fact, alone, anyways. But, responsible, personally and solely for every single COVID-19 death in the country, period - like @Birdjaguar and a bunch of others were saying - that is still the Medieval Monarchial point-of-view of national heads-of-state. A lion's share of the AVOIDABLE deaths, yes - but the claim of all COVID-19 deaths in the nation for any reason, avoidable realistically or not, personally and out of knowing malice and not incompetence and/or apathy (which I know you personally didn't say, but others outright did, and you somewhat moved into a posture of defending their claims) is a bit much to be realistically believable for ANY head-of-state in any modern country, frankly.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The thing is, once the Electoral College meets and renders it's decision, and Inauguration Day rolls around, does Trump's lack of concession and recognition of his own defeat have any legal meaning? Wouldn't he legally become a "trespasser and squatter on sensitive Federal Government property," and he able to be treated, arrested, prosecuted, and removed like one?

You are correct, he will no longer be President come noon on Inauguration Day.

 

[Zardnaar]

You are correct, he will no longer be President come noon on Inauguration Day.

Yeah once he's citizen Trump he loses all power and privleges of the office.

He does get a secret service detail as any ex president gets but ultimately they're under the new presidents command.

Assuming nothing untoward happens on Dec 14 when Biden takes that oath Trump has no legal anything really beyond US citizen.

Pre Covid I would rank him around 40th on best/worst presidents. Worst modern president.
Post Covid second or third worst. He can really only compete with some of the worst 19th century presidents regarding the civil war.

He didn't cause that (yet).

 

[GenMarshall]

Pre Covid I would rank him around 40th on best/worst presidents. Worst modern president.
Post Covid second or third worst. He can really only compete with some of the worst 19th century presidents regarding the civil war.

 

[cardgame]

the Peace and Justice Party and the Party of Socialism and Liberation were BIG supporters of BLM rallies, where the disease was spread just as much as at big Trump rallies

nah

 

[Zardnaar]

Lol seen that before.