2020 US Election (Part 3)

[Cloud_Strife]

Except Trump is literally closer to be a fascist (arguably he is one!) than Obama or Clinton are closer to be socialist liberals let alone communists, this gaslighting is insane

 

[Patine]

Except Trump is literally closer to be a fascist (arguably he is one!) than Obama or Clinton are closer to be socialist liberals let alone communists, this gaslighting is insane

"Gaslighting?" That's rich. That is tantamount to an accusation that I have a sinister and ulterior motive beyond just desiring clarity in this matter. I have no such Machiavellian scheme, I assure you. And if I were such an evil mastermind (for the sake of argument), a Civilization game forum would be a pretty pitiful platform to engage such dire agendas in, frankly. That's laughable...

 

[Lexicus]

Your insistence on using old, obsolete labels for modern movements in new contexts is a form of toxic nostalgia. Toxic nostalgia is a centre pillar of EVERY far-right-wing movement out there, whether they be old Fascists, or others (the non-Fascists in the great majority of that grouping - your obstenant denial of facts and reality changing nothing), as well.

I'm not making an accusation, just a suggestion

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

*rolls eyes*

No seriously, what does plausible mean?

Because

but "HW Bush tried to have Reagan killed" is totally plausible

Your reply.

For the third time (please read!) I am not making an accusation or saying there is solid proof. Do we understand, here?

Lexicus wrote "totally plausible", which to my knowledge doesn't require solid proof.

So did you not please read, or did you not understand there?

 

[Patine]

I'm not making an accusation, just a suggestion

Are you quoting the right post?

 

[Lexicus]

Are you quoting the right post?

Yea pretty much, I'm sort of speaking for Cloud there, jokingly...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

trump is still a fascist, an incompetent one, but a fascist nonetheless

Trump is a cultist leader. Fascism has some strong ideology with regard to controlling social and economical aspects of society. Trump only ideology is ego-centrism/mania. His followers consider his word gospel and won't have anyone contradict it no matter how loony his claims are.

The methods he used were also used by fascists though. Undermining the credibility of the free press, discrediting free elections.

 

[Lexicus]

Trump is a cultist leader. Fascism has some strong ideology with regard to controlling social and economical aspects of society. Trump only ideology is ego-centrism/mania. His followers consider his word gospel and won't have anyone contradict it no matter how loony his claims are.

The methods he used were also used by fascists though. Undermining the credibility of the free press, discrediting free elections.

It's also worth calling him a fascist because his voters desperately want fascism even if they themselves don't quite realize it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's also worth calling him a fascist because his voters desperately want fascism even if they themselves don't quite realize it.

Oh sure, it's fun calling him a fascist when his acolytes are in the room, but I haven't seen oneJ around.

You have a point that Trumpism showed there's a demographic who would happily follow a 'strong man' as long as the 'strong man' talks the right talk. We have to count the legal votes (read: Trump votes) but not the illegal ones (Biden votes). Just by calling it legal and illegal, they maintain the illusion it's them who are the champions of Democracy. No evidence needed, just tweets.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

That is tantamount to an accusation that I have a sinister and ulterior motive beyond just desiring clarity in this matter.

Strong words from someone who regularly does this to people he mildly disagrees with

 

[Birdjaguar]

And the Republicans just can't get enough from being corrupt:

Stock trades made by Senator David Perdue of Georgia prompted a Justice Department inquiry.

Early this year, Senator David Perdue, Republican of Georgia, sold more than $1 million worth of stock in the financial company Cardlytics, where he once served on the board. Six weeks later, its share price tumbled when the company’s founder announced he would step down as chief executive and the firm said its future sales would be worse than expected.

After the price bottomed out in March at $29, Mr. Perdue bought back a substantial portion of the shares that he had sold. They are now trading at around $120 per share.

The transactions drew the attention this spring of investigators at the Justice Department, who were undertaking a broad review of the senator’s prolific trading around the outset of the coronavirus pandemic for possible evidence of insider trading, according to four people with knowledge of the case who described aspects of it on the condition of anonymity.

Investigators found that Cardlytics’s chief executive at the time, Scott Grimes, sent Mr. Perdue a personal email two days before the senator’s stock sale that made a vague mention of “upcoming changes.” The timing of the message prompted additional scrutiny from investigators in both Washington and Atlanta. But ultimately they concluded the exchange contained no meaningful nonpublic information and declined to pursue charges, closing the case this summer.

The federal scrutiny is the most vivid example to date of how Mr. Perdue’s complex financial interests and frequent trading have complicated his pursuit of a second Senate term. Democrats have used details of his trades to accuse him of lining his pockets when Americans were worried about their jobs and health.

Congress’s ethics rules do not bar lawmakers from holding or trading individual stocks, but like other Americans, they are not allowed to trade on inside information. Other lawmakers have decided it is not worth the political sweat that comes with the appearance of possible conflicts of interest and have steered their investments into diversified mutual funds. But Mr. Perdue has been one of the most active traders on Capitol Hill.

John Burke, a spokesman for Mr. Perdue’s campaign, said that investigators with the Justice Department and the Securities and Exchange Commission had “quickly and independently cleared Senator Perdue of any wrongdoing.”

The results of two Senate runoffs in Georgia in January — including Mr. Perdue’s race against Jon Ossoff, a Democrat — will determine which party controls the chamber and with it, President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s ability to advance his agenda through Congress.

— Katie Benner, Adam Goldman, Nicholas Fandos and Kate Kelly

Maybe it will help him lose his election.

 

[Patine]

It's also worth calling him a fascist because his voters desperately want fascism even if they themselves don't quite realize it.

A political cult of personality is not always, or even remotely close to usually, Fascism. In fact, the vast, vast majority of political cults of personality are definitely NOT Fascist, and quite a few are (and were) even far-LEFT-wing. Other than "Nation worship," Trumpism has very little in common with actual Fascism that is not typical of most political cults of personality inherently, in a typical sense.

 

[Patine]

Strong words from someone who regularly does this to people he mildly disagrees with

It's not like you show much more grace or forebearance to those you mildly disagree with.

Does the idiom, "the pot calling the kettle black mean anything to you," here.

Now, I will not bicker with you further.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

It's not like you show much more grace or forebearance to those you mildly disagree with.

I tend to argue with people over whether minorities should be able to exist, so yes, there isn't much room for such.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/25/trump-administration-alaska-mining-project-440626

In a statement, the Army Corps said it had determined the mining company's plan to deal with the huge amounts of rock and other fill material that would be displaced by the mine "does not comply with Clean Water Act guidelines and [ACE] concluded that the proposed project is contrary to the public interest. This action is based on all available facts and complies with existing laws and regulations. It reflects a regulatory process that is fair, flexible and balanced."

[...]

The mining project divided Republicans and Alaska politicians normally in favor of expanding domestic mineral production. President Donald Trump faced a public pressure campaign from Republicans, including mega-donor Andy Sabin, Bass Pro Shops CEO Johnny Morris, Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson and the his eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., to block the project.

Don't get to say this often, so here goes.

I agree with Tucker Carlson and Donald Trump Jr.

 

[Patine]

I tend to argue with people over whether minorities should be able to exist, so yes, there isn't much room for such.

That's not at all what you're picking an argument with me over at this point. Unless you're reading a lot of non-existent intimations into my posts, somehow. Now, this argument ends.

 

[Takhisis]

So, quick, name five populist movements that died shortly after one of their leaders was defeated and then name a couple where the movement continued and then re-welcomed an old leader.

Peronism seems to never go away?

It never goes away, no. And, as exemplified by Maradona's death today, it rides its victim-sponsors-shills to death, but survives like a many-headed hydra.

All populisms and totalitarianisms are like that.

 

[Patine]

It never goes away, no. And, as exemplified by Maradona's death today, it rides its victim-sponsors-shills to death, but survives like a many-headed hydra.

All populisms and totalitarianisms are like that.

I spoke of true populism losing it's fervor and fire of mass enthusiasm and just becoming the base of a mainstream political movement in a given nation, which is what happened with Peronism, and quite a few movements around the world that started as populism, but their ideologies remain a prominent aspect of that nation's political sphere. But they meaningfully cease to be populism, by definition.

 

[Zardnaar]

Patines actually right. Trump and Co might be happy with an authoritarian regime.

Doesn't make it fascist.

GoPs more about free market winner takes all as well. Fascists had a lot of government intervention.

 

[Takhisis]

GoPs more about free market winner takes all as well. Fascists had a lot of government intervention.

The government intentionally awarding indigenous holy sites to mining companies that have a past of destroying such sites is not ‘free’. That's the state dispossessing some in favour of others.

It's just that when the government intervenes in favour of the rich and powerful it's called something else. By definition everything the government does is intervention.