Cloud_Strife
Deity
How exactly do you run an effective campaign when the aparatus of the party you're in is at best, actively hostile to you and working against you?
2020 US Election (Part One)
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hobbsyoyo
Deity
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It's too soon to ring that bell I think (and hope) @Timsup2nothin. If the writing's on the wall with Bernie, the paint is still fresh.
Timsup2nothin
Deity
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I pointed out that he was underperforming 2016 when his faithful were calling him the presumptive nominee after Nevada. He has continued to underperform 2016 consistently, and taken it to a massive level as of yesterday. Based on his speech last night he is more interested in blaming his underperformance on the voters who are not voting for him than he is in even asking them to consider voting for him. The fervor of his supporters suggests that any attempt at actually broadening his appeal (ie trying to win) would be taken by them as some sort of betrayal, so even if he did try I'm not sure he could draw more than he would lose if he did try. The writing has been on the wall, and yesterday was the only chance to change it, but it would have required catastrophic failures by Biden or a sort of fantastical prognostication by Bloomberg proving out and that didn't happen. The voters are speaking, and as usual ignoring them is not the road to political success.
The same way everyone else does. "The party apparatus" is no one's to command until there is a nominee. The people who make up the party apparatus have favorites, true enough. Those favorites are not likely to include a guy who yammers about how he got 45% of the vote and was "robbed" of the nomination. He did that, and that was flatly stupid. He continues to whine about "the opposition of the party" when almost every nominee in living memory has won the nomination without being the actual party favorite. Obama wasn't the favorite of the people in positions of leadership in the party. He didn't whine about how he "couldn't campaign under those circumstances, he just went out and got votes.
Biden had NO money. He had NO staff. He was being left for dead by the media. And he just went out and got votes, including the very important votes of Amy Klobacher and Pete Buttigieg and Beto O'Roarke and James Clyburn. That's campaigning. "If you don't endorse me then you're a corporate shill and as bad as Trump maybe worse" isn't campaigning, it's attempted extortion and it doesn't work.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
You know what? Okay. Whatever.
We're not getting anywhere, I'm going to use my time more productively and watch paint dry and grass grow.
We're not getting anywhere, I'm going to use my time more productively and watch paint dry and grass grow.
Zardnaar
Deity
And this is what we've been trying to tell you since forever.
When you use language like this and it's replicated across Twitter you're alienating people who's votes you need.
I don't have access to it anymore but something like 70% of the left is actually sick of language like this.
They might vote Trump, they might vote Sanders, a lot aren't going to disagree with a lot if the message.
You can't communicate with people like that and expect them to support you. Doesn't matter if it's left, right or Hilary calling people deplorables.
Trump does it sure, but he insults people who aren't going to vote for him anyway.
You insult people who's support you need. Magnify that across Twitter and yeah.
Consider that number. 70% of people who's vote you need and are inclined to support you are sick of it.
You don't hear oir prime monsters speak that way along with members of the Green party. They're self aware enough to know pissing off 80%+ of the electorate isn't a good way to roll.
I've started to think you're an out right troll. This is basic marketing/politics, how to influence people 101. Even Trump doesn't insult his own followers.
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Ironsided
Flower of happiness
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Good man. Republican conservatives like Tim and BJ lost their party to more and more insane people starting in the 80s and culminating with Trump. In their warped minds it’s their natural right to move the Overton window and claim the democratic party as theirs now - and push everyone currently there out on their arse, justified by pointing their fingers and calling them radicals. After all that’s what’s happed at the top and corporate level of the party as well. When Bloomberg in the debate said he bought 21 reps and Nancy Pelosi, it may have been a bit of a Freudian slip, but he was not joking.
Zardnaar
Deity
Biden might be 2 steps forward one step back but Trump's 3 steps back.
If Sanders turns it around I would vote for him. If Biden wins I would vote for him.
Sit it out if you want. Don't complain if you do and Trump wins. Up to you.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
This is 2016 all over again; when faced with the choice of a centrist candidate that will continue the status quo and a genuinely progressive one they doubled down on the former.
We will have 4 more years of trump and then what tim? Will you just tell us to be quiet again, like you are now or will you reflect on how we wasted this opportunity?
We will have 4 more years of trump and then what tim? Will you just tell us to be quiet again, like you are now or will you reflect on how we wasted this opportunity?
Berzerker
Deity
The wikileaked emails showed the Clinton campaign was in command long before she became the nominee. It aint surprising some of Bernie's supporters will view this election with skepticism given that reality, especially when the msm constantly trashes Bernie while promoting favored establishment candidates.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
It's no coincidence that literally every candidate that has dropped out has immediately endorsed Biden, even those that claim to be progressive
I think the problem is that these probabilities are quoted as point estimates. If they were provided with confidence intervals we would see how uncertain they are, and would be less supprised when the point estimate changes drastically but still within the confidence interval.
Berzerker
Deity
I'm not sure I could describe Biden as a step forward on much of anything, he voted to invade Iraq, he was a major architect of the war on drugs, and sure wont hold China accountable on trade policy. Trump beats him on all three issues.
Zardnaar
Deity
I see him doing something about health care, judge appointments, not driving the country into the gutter. Not claiming he's a good or ideal candidate.
The guy who told you to vote for republicans is gonna appoint good judges?
This dumbass?
https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...ower-with-republicans-is-a-good-thing-923669/
The guy who voted to cut medicare four times is gonna do something positive about health care?
GET REAL!
Maybe they shouldn't be so damn stupid and insultable.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
I'm sure the dude who literally said "nothing will change" will make the radical improvements and changes needed to keep Americans from being unable to access healthcar- *farts*
Pfffllphhfft
Get real, you can't seriously be this naive
Pfffllphhfft
Get real, you can't seriously be this naive
Zardnaar
Deity
The party will write it he will probably sign it.
If Trump wins hell have 2 years to have another crack at dismantling the ACA.
RBG not in the best if health. Wat Trump appointing another supreme Court Judge?
You know the ones who can sign off on revoking laws aimed at protecting people you claim to car about.
Or will sign off on any laws that otherwise suck but don't break the constitution. Wade Vs Roe can be over turned.
I don't see Biden doing any of that. Up to you who you vote for but you seem to enjoy being a victim so go figure.
Voter pressure is only strong enough for small changes that do not really disrupt.
For bigger changes you do need private initiatives, be it commercial or non-commercial.
Non-commercial initiatives of the grassroot movement type have some effect when aimed at the top of politics. just like voting power, but it does not come far enough for bigger changes. And getting hold of regions can help.
The only way to get bigger changes for movements is when you can build up alternatives that can stand their ground (=compete with the existing set).
Regarding Health Care:
If you can crowd fund medicin studies and generate a substantial surplus of GPs, doctors, specialists, nurses, etc... AND you set up small clinics (some medic multinationals happy to increase selling devices for sure)... AND run them,,,
you will have effect !
Another way would be ofc to ask MSF, Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctors Without Borders) to supply medical care in the US for the uninsured. Perhaps such an affront of national pride is able to move the position of the US elite.
BTW: the salary of MSF doctors send out from the Netherlands is Euro 1,210 per month.
And yes... I do expect doctors who got their study paid by crowd funding to work at a low salary for a while in such humanitarian organisations or donate a substantial part of their salary back into the fund from which their study was paid.
Perhaps some students should switch from their Art study or Politics study to some more craftman study that has much more leverage on national politics than talking as spectator.
A lot of polling does seem to suggest that there is significant crossover between Biden and Sanders supporters, i.e. they are each the second-choice of many of their voters. You are right that it's more than just the "die-hard Sanders activists", but it's also not every Sanders supporter who distrusts or hates "the establishment". Or perhaps more importantly, not every Sanders supporters would define "the establishment" in the same way.
On the one hand, that speaks to Sanders's ability to increase support amongst people not already supporting him; on the other hand, it indicates that Sanders losing would not be as disastrous for the party as you are suggesting.
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