Coronavirus 3: The Resurgence

[Commodore]

This really goes to show how responsible individual police officers are for the negative consequences of state policy. If the police showed as much pushback to the drug war as they do to mask wearing it would not be the problem it is today.

True. But here it's not just the police, it's everyone. Citizens are refusing to comply and there is not one single government agency or department that is willing to take on the task of enforcement. That's why I laugh whenever someone says something like "but the governor said..." or "but city council passed an ordinance..."

This is a perfect example of why people shouldn't fear the government or follow any new law until the government shows they are actually willing and capable of enforcing it.

So, completely ignoring the negative consequences that I listed (and anything else that differs from your contrived example of a random person in your house), your position is one of defending the state for - in your own words - "legal discrimination".

If that's what you're choosing to defend, then I guess there isn't an argument that will make you see how damaging this is. That's the problem with these "but its legal" arguments, moreso when it comes from someone who is inherently against government overreach. Why is something related to immigration suddenly cause to abandon your general principles?

It's only harmful to them though. You'll have to forgive me if I'm not going to weep for a bunch of college students who are only here to use our education system and then take that education back to their home country for its benefit instead of ours.

And I'm not abandoning my principles at all. I am against government overreach. I just don't see this as government overreach.

So you are against America being a leading source of medical, technological, and other ground breaking developments, economic growth, and the world's best university system? Gotcha.

Not at all. You are just drinking the Kool-Aid that foreigners are a requirement for all of that. They aren't.

 

[Farm Boy]

Why would you argue this point? The universities are clearly going to work around it in the spirit of American rejection of centralized capriciousness, then go ahead and offer education while collecting tuition where they can(they're being annihilated financially by the loss of on-campus revenue), and reopen as soon as they can and hope they haven't bled so much they die.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Then perhaps it would be easier for them to enroll in a university in their own country. Foreigners are not entitled to access to our universities just as I, as an American, am not entitled to access to, say, French universities.



But it's legal discrimination. Non-citizens do not have an inherent right to be here. They are here because our government gives them permission to be here and that permission can be revoked at any time. This is something that really shouldn't be controversial since, as I said earlier, non-citizens do not have any inherent right to be here.

It's like if you came to stay at my house for a few days. Initially I may grant you permission to stay in my home, but I, as the legal resident of that home, reserve the right to tell you to leave whenever I want. This concept isn't controversial at that scale, but somehow becomes controversial when applied at the national level.

Not at all the same as your example. They were given permission to come to the US for the period of their academic studies, studies they paid the universities for, and partway through those studies permission is being withdrawn.

 

[Hrothbern]

Seems to me that this is a problem for the US and an opportunity for all other developed countries.
Up to civil society of the US to be concerned about loss of knowlege potential and cheap research labor and take action through the normal channels available in the US to change it.

I wonder in how far a foreign sudent can sue the US government
1. for the lost study progress for which money was paid
2. for the disruption of finishing a study in planned time. In effect the lost job years.

 

[Commodore]

Not at all the same as your example. They were given permission to come to the US for the period of their academic studies, studies they paid the universities for, and partway through those studies permission is being withdrawn

Which is the government's prerogative. To go back to my analogy, if I say you can stay with me for a week as long as you do my dishes, I still reserve the right to demand you leave after two days even if you are living up to your end of the bargain.

The US revoked visas all the time for reasons a lot more petty than this. They revoke visas over things like spelling mistakes on paperwork.

And it's not like these students have no recourse. If they feel their visas are being unfairly revoked there is an appeals process. It's not like ICE agents are just going to kick down their door and cart them off in the middle of the night.

 

[Samson]

Not at all. You are just drinking the Kool-Aid that foreigners are a requirement for all of that. They aren't.

You absolutely need foreigners to have the world's best university system. You really have people that have worked all over the world coming to a good university to have access to people with the most cutting edge skills and knowledge. If you exclude yourself from the global community of scientists you will not have the worlds best scientists therefore not the worlds best research therefore not the worlds best university.

 

[Commodore]

You absolutely need foreigners to have the world's best university system. You really have people that have worked all over the world coming to a good university to have access to people with the most cutting edge skills and knowledge. If you exclude yourself from the global community of scientists you will not have the worlds best scientists therefore not the worlds best research therefore not the worlds best university.

We aren't excluding ourselves from the global community though. This only affects students taking online-only courses. And they aren't being disenrolled from their universities or prevented from continuing their studies at an American university. They just can't actually reside within the US if they are only taking online classes.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

There is an exciting new trend where I live: Shaming and harassing people who choose to wear masks in public.

Good trend.

Moderator Action: It is not wise to troll a moderator. --LM

 

[Samson]

We aren't excluding ourselves from the global community though. This only affects students taking online-only courses. And they aren't being disenrolled from their universities or prevented from continuing their studies at an American university. They just can't actually reside within the US if they are only taking online classes.

I was responding purely to your apparent statement that you could have the worlds best universities without ANY foreigners. I get the any was not in your statement, and it makes much more sense with the context.

I would say that in the UK, the loss of the foreign students is a really big problem for the universities, as they get loads of their money from them. But then flying from all over the world to meet up in big groups with "potentially relaxed inhibitions" may not be a great idea. There are not so many good options here.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Seems to me that this is a problem for the US and an opportunity for all other developed countries.
Up to civil society of the US to be concerned about loss of knowlege potential and cheap research labor and take action through the normal channels available in the US to change it.

I wonder in how far a foreign sudent can sue the US government
1. for the lost study progress for which money was paid
2. for the disruption of finishing a study in planned time. In effect the lost job years.

I do know that a lot of Chinese students who came to the UK to study at UK universities are saying what
is the point of being here if I have to stay in my flat and study online, I can do that just as well from China.

 

[Commodore]

There is an exciting new trend where I live: Shaming and harassing people who choose to wear masks in public.

Remember kids, this is how grownups act.... Like morons.

It's also moronic to harass and shame people for not wearing a mask, which has been happening a hell of a lot more than harassment of people wearing masks.

It even happened at my work. One city employee was harassing another because he wasn't wearing a mask. The masked employee was literally standing in the way of the one without a mask and was demanding that my security guard kick him out of the building while ranting hysterically about the new city ordinance. I'm glad my guard followed my instructions and refused to kick the employee out. I told my guards all they can do is remind everyone about wearing masks, but if they refuse there's nothing more that can be done. And since both the police and the Health Department refuse to enforce the ordinance, I certainly don't expect my guards to.

 

[Hrothbern]

I do know that a lot of Chinese students who came to the UK to study at UK universities are saying what
is the point of being here if I have to stay in my flat and study online, I can do that just as well from China.

Depends on your study, the kind of knowledge.

Depends on students that group up to share and help each other.

I did chemistry and most of the theoretical knowledge I had to learn was much better described, explained in books than teached by teachers.
The most important knowledge for me was doing the practica, learning all the devices, equipment, their capabilities and "trade secrets"". and the manual techniques. And enough time for talking with practica teachers and friends on theory.
Within a half year I had skipped all my colleges, went only the first lesson to get an impression and to know who to greet. And only followed the colleges of all three philosophy courses because there the teacher had meaningful input.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Which is the government's prerogative. To go back to my analogy, if I say you can stay with me for a week as long as you do my dishes, I still reserve the right to demand you leave after two days even if you are living up to your end of the bargain.

No. I understand the larger point that you are trying to make here, but this specific example you are giving isn't correct. But of course contracting a leasehold interest in residential property in exchange for services is not at all like the US Government granting a Visa. The Government can pretty much revoke a Visa at their pleasure.

 

[El_Machinae]

It's also moronic to harass and shame people for not wearing a mask, which has been happening a hell of a lot more than harassment of people wearing masks.

That depends on the local statistical chance that the maskless person is a carrier and whether honey or vinegar is the better tool.
No one looking at an unmasked person knows they're safe and there are going to be local statistics as to whether the unmasked person knows if they're safe. We do know that the maskless person is willing to signal that they don't care, so treating a person who doesn't care as if they're delinquent in other ways is going to happen. Then it's just a honey or vinegar question.

 

[Commodore]

That depends

Nope. Harassment is wrong no matter the reason behind it. Also, the average citizen is not law enforcement, thus they have no authority to stop someone who is minding their own business and demand they comply with some ordinance that not even the actual authorities are willing to enforce.

 

[Gorbles]

It's only harmful to them though. You'll have to forgive me if I'm not going to weep for a bunch of college students who are only here to use our education system and then take that education back to their home country for its benefit instead of ours.

And I'm not abandoning my principles at all. I am against government overreach. I just don't see this as government overreach.

And I sure hope you remember this opinion of yours the next time you're aghast at why people don't oppose what you do perceive as overreach then. By settling it as effectively some form of opinion, you abdicate any responsibility at defining it in any way that is consistent across a group of people.

 

[tuckerkao]

So you are against America being a leading source of medical, technological, and other ground breaking developments, economic growth, and the world's best university system? Gotcha.

Coronavirus is a big test for America, what the final grade will it be? Nobody knows it yet, but it's really a big winner for America to have the #1 Covid cases and death across the entire world.

If America is really strong enough, Covid-19 should just be another type of flu.

President Trump still boast how America(409) has lower fatality rate per million population compare to France(459) and Italy(578). I'd like to see those numbers on Sep 1st, 2020 because America is catching up those numbers very quick due to the facts that the quadruple Covid hotspots are raging in Texas, Florida, California and Arizona. Whereas, France and Italy see very few new deaths during the recent weeks.

 

[Farm Boy]

Then it's just a honey or vinegar question.

A maskless piece of horsehocky tried to pick a fight with me when I silently backed away from his wanna-snuggle distance in a grocery line. A senior citizen politely backed me up until ******o decided to mind his manners.

 

[innonimatu]

It's also moronic to harass and shame people for not wearing a mask, which has been happening a hell of a lot more than harassment of people wearing masks.

I've noticed that people in the US seem to be making big political issues of small practical things. Mask wearing is to address a specific circumstance that will be limited in time anyway, a practical issue. Why make it a divisive political issue?

And the practical issue here is the necessity of everyone (or nearly everyone) to wear masks if the virus is to be defeated (though that alone is not enough). The sooner it's done the sooner the whole episode can be left behind. There's a very rational, practical reason to harass people for not wearing masks.
The problem there, as in many places, is that the government has not presented a coherent strategy to extinguish the virus and thus make the effort worthwhile. Obviously there is more resistance if the things looks in part like theater without purpose. There is purpose of course: even 50% of people wearing mask still slows down the virus. But this is death by a thousand cuts. It's the wrong strategy.

 

[Zelig]

Nope. Harassment is wrong no matter the reason behind it. Also, the average citizen is not law enforcement, thus they have no authority to stop someone who is minding their own business and demand they comply with some ordinance that not even the actual authorities are willing to enforce.

This is why I get upset when people harass me for not wearing pants.