[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine: Eight
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Klaus Hergersheimer
Emperor
I'd only ask that of someone's who's the least bit interested in explaining Putin's side of the conflict.
Trump needs to see himself as the "deal maker" and the "winner".
Lord Shadow
Admiral
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- Oct 14, 2005
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Unfortunately, there's not enough political will in the Western sphere to impose anything on Russia, and Ukraine couldn't and can't do it alone. It seems that cutting losses is the only option unless Zelensky would rather keep the country in a state of endless war.
However, the West should at least grow a pair just big enough to allow NATO and/or EU accession. Particularly the former. The age of appeasement must come to an end. It didn't work in the 1930s, and it won't work today.
Most unfortunate, nevertheless, is the fact that however "strong" Trump wants to look, he's a selfish Putinophile. The fact that neither Europe nor especially Ukraine are being included in "peace talks" is abhorrent. America is entering a navelgazing period, the public doesn't care, and Trump has little issue rewarding Russia for its war of aggression. We always knew his master peace plan was simply going to be the handover of Ukraine on a silver platter. The actual plan may well be only a thinly-veiled version of that, especially if Ukraine isn't given any security guarantees.
However, the West should at least grow a pair just big enough to allow NATO and/or EU accession. Particularly the former. The age of appeasement must come to an end. It didn't work in the 1930s, and it won't work today.
Most unfortunate, nevertheless, is the fact that however "strong" Trump wants to look, he's a selfish Putinophile. The fact that neither Europe nor especially Ukraine are being included in "peace talks" is abhorrent. America is entering a navelgazing period, the public doesn't care, and Trump has little issue rewarding Russia for its war of aggression. We always knew his master peace plan was simply going to be the handover of Ukraine on a silver platter. The actual plan may well be only a thinly-veiled version of that, especially if Ukraine isn't given any security guarantees.
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Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Those talks will not end the war, they expose Ukraine and Europe to Russian threats more than ever. Trump doesn't want to do any peace-keeping in Ukraine, he unilaterally decided to delegate that to Europeans, asking them to spend 5% of their GDP in US weapons. You really think that's a good deal?
I know that, I was curious about why it was making a Russian happy and got my answer.
Let's assume that indeed "Russia is not happy", due to not annexing all of Ukraine or politically controlling it. They still do get to annex around 1/5 of Ukraine - which 1/5 they had already decreed by law to be part of Russia, so they do want it - so are at least happy about that. Again taking at face value that Russia won't be happy unless it can annex Ukraine etc, as things go they will be happy, just not entirely happy.
What does Ukraine have to feel "happy, just not entirely happy" about losing 1/5 of its land? Some promise of forces from some Eu countries in theory to be stationed in part of it?
What does Ukraine have to feel "happy, just not entirely happy" about losing 1/5 of its land? Some promise of forces from some Eu countries in theory to be stationed in part of it?
Finland lost part of its land in Winter War, but managed to retain independence and, in subsequent decades, build one of the richest and happiest societies in the world.
Meanwhile... well, you're welcome to study the "prosperity" brought to conquered East Karelia.
But in the case of Finland, the land lost was arguably land they could afford to lose - if it meant getting out of a war with USSR. In the case of Ukraine, it is virtually all of its sea access.
it seems you're trying to determine a clear winner and a clear loser, but it's absurd, it's not binary.
and it involves more than just the countries at war if you want to determine who lost what and who won what at this point.
Ukraine has lost the most, their is no discussion here, but they can lose much more.
Russia has lost a lot and still hasn't achieved any of its goals, but can still negotiate some of those
Then there is Europe on the losing side, not as much, by a far margin, but it's surely not in the side of those who gained something
On the "winning" side it would be hard to give an order, but here are some countries that have gained something out of it
NK, Iran : technological transfert from Russia
India: cheap oil from Russia
China, from which Russia is now dependent
US, that have replaced the biggest part of Russian exports in Europe
I'm not sure where to put NATO that has expanded strategically but also exposed weaknesses
Main Ukrainian Black Sea port is Odessa, which is still firmly in Ukrainian hands.
So are Mykolaiv and Chernomorsk.
The Europeans are actually increasingly procuring military hardware and ammunition from European and non-US defense contractors.
The total value of these contracts amounts to over USD180 billion. Of this total, the IISS estimates that at least USD94bn, or 52%, was spent on European systems and USD61bn (or 34%) on US systems, with USD25bn (or 14%) on systems from Brazil, Israel and South Korea.
Therefore, total sales after Russia’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine have been directed more to European manufacturers, with the total being awarded to non-European suppliers amounting to about USD86bn, or 48%. And with uncertainty over the financial values applied to acquisitions like Turkish local production, the European portion could be higher still.
https://www.iiss.org/online-analysi...efence-procurement-since-2022-a-reassessment/
German defense contractor Rheinmetall alone manufactured more 155mm artillery shells than the entire US output in 2024. It took too long to wake up the Europeans, but it's finally happening.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
The reunion the main European countries (including UK), have in Paris just now is about that. Building a European army and taking the control in this side of the world once for all. It seems there are more than enough money to do it, it is only a matter of reaching an agreement, which knowing EU is not a minor issue.
(Love as they left out EU official clowns Orban and Fico btw)
(Love as they left out EU official clowns Orban and Fico btw)
Russia's international isolation is deepening 
Ordnael
Emperor
I would say North Korea another very bellicose nation is very isolated...and I foresee the same will happen with Russia. Of course uncle Sam will want to come visit you from time to time to make sure you're not misbehaving too much and then talk to your daddy China about how is the kid doing. But let's face it, your playground will be more and more frequented by the bullies of the free world and nations that have utter contempt for human rights just like Russia...yeah you're not isolated!
saamohod
Deity
+ North Korea. Three nuclear states against one non-nuclear
Verbose
Deity
Death of justice.Russia's international isolation is deepening
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